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Tuesday, February 16, 2016

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without philosophical basis or valid scientific theory or something like basic knowledge no meaning is going to be accorded to you, this society and whatsoever else.

Learn all this and contribute to the sustenance of humanity by joining this group..........

https://www.facebook.com/groups/683184211786307/?ref=bookmarks

Sunday, April 15, 2012

Key outcomes from FTI’s third annual conference (February 2012, Mumbai)

On April 15, 2012, in Freedom Team, by Sanjeev Sabhlok


FTI’s third annual conference was held on 18 and 19 February 2012 in Mumbai.

Participants:

Participated on both days (17 members): Supratim Basu, Vishal Singh, Piyush Bansal, Sameer Panje, LK Kandpal, Akalpita Paranjpe, AR Patil, Venkat (Barry) Bharathan, KK Verma, Arvind Ilamaran, Stalin Anbalagan, Vijay Mohan, Arun Shankar, Sanjeev Sabhlok, Anubhava Srivastava, Anubhav Lal, Dipinder Sekhon.
1 ½ days (1 member): Rahul Pandit
1 day (2 members): Kamal Kishore Sharma and Sandeep Shelke
½ day (1 member): Shantanu Bhagwat

In all, 21 members (out of well over 100) attended. Many members who attended previous conferences could not make it. Some members (like Sanjeev) attend only every alternate one due to the costs involved). While not ideal, the conference provided sufficient evidence, if any is needed, of the high quality of individuals who have joined FTI.

Participants who remained at about 5 pm on the second day (Sunday) are depicted in the photo below.



(Click above image for larger image)

This blog post summarises the discussions and focuses on key agreements:

FTI’s roles and responsibilities

A concern was raised by that absence of clear roles could be a root cause of a perception among some people that “no action was happening in FTI”. While FTI has some clear (e.g. Secretary, Treasurer, FTI managers group, etc.) there was need to get greater focus.

It was noted that FTI had successfully completed a large number of projects so far. Some of these include, with key project leaders indicated in parentheses:

a) The website and logo (Anil/ Anubhava)
b) Registration of FTI (LK Kandpal/ Ajay Anand)
c) Letters to independents (Ajay)
d) IT system including Forum (Anubhava)
e) Rules of FTI (Supratim/Kamal)
f) Brochure (Supratim)
g) Outreach events (numerous) – e.g. Shantanu (across India), Anil (Allahabad), Sanjeev (Delhi, Guwahati), Sanjay Mehrotra (Bangalore) (supported by LKK, Dipinder, Suneeta, etc.)
h) Magazine – Sanjeev
i) Management of new applicants: FTI Managers (Anupam, Ajay)
j) Organisation of annual conferences: Mumbai and Delhi chapters
k) etc. etc.

FTI doesn't have money or command structure to motivate action. It also doesn’t want a command structure. What is needed is a set of well-defined causes/projects that will motivate members and get greater participation.

Decision:
It was decided to streamline FTI’s roles to get results and increase momentum. It was agreed that all causes/ projects should have volunteer coordinator as team leader/coordinator/project manager. Members who volunteered for such roles would then provide their proposals to the FTI Forum, outlining what they will do and the support they need.

Potential roles:
Various roles were identified. Participants also offered to undertake specific roles. The following is an illustrative list. The names allocated against these area have been removed from the published list:

Web-cordinator
College outreach coordinator
Marketing coordinator
Policy coordinator/s
Sharing across local chapters coordinator
Reaching out to renowned personalities
Media and PR coordinator
Networking with groups, associations, occupations, small business
Events coordinator:
School outreach coordinator
Branding FTI
Web community creation
Collecting membership fee
Membership Process
Blogging
Writing in the media
Membership drive
Funding needs assessment
Simplification of policy documents
Standard operating procedure (SOP) coordinator
Induction coordinator
Social network coordinator
Facebook coordinator
Twittter coordinator
Electronic media coordinator
Freedom Partner group coordinator
Communication coordinator
Internal communications coordinator
Content generation for website
Internal newsletter (summary of forum and google group info)
Ground work coordinator (e.g. leveraging issues)
etc.
Flexibility on policy
Should FTI seek tight coherence on policy positions or whether we members should be allowed some latitude on policies?

It was agreed that some flexibility, within a tight boundary of liberty, was acceptable, along with an opportunity for debate and discussion.

New members should be encouraged to test their understanding. Older members must have some patience with these discussions, and help new members to reach coherence. Policy discussions are the best way for new members to actually learn liberty and capitalism.

However, we are not in the business of changing the mindsets of dedicated socialists or communists – so, our joining conditions would continue to insist on adherence to classical liberalism. Fundamentals/ basics of classical liberalism can not be compromised.

Leadership process
A question was raised about FTI’s leadership process. Why would anyone contribute to FTI’s growth if they did not know whether their work would be recognised when decisions are taken by FTI to nominate people for constituencies. And what would happen, for instance, if 10 FTI members wanted to contest from the Gurgaon constituency, how would this conflict be resolved?

While there is no precise model on FTI for such leadership, it is clearly understood that the team, through its own deliberations, will arrive at processes for such matters at the appropriate time. It is expected that the contributions made by team members would be pivotal in a particular member’s prospects in a particular situation.

It was agreed that FTI must respect the contributions of members of the team and acknowledge these contributions. There must be a culture of giving credit to members who lead (and deliver) various projects. (FTI is working on a document to publish successful projects undertaken by FTI members so far)

It was also agreed that all roles (except those which are legally required, e.g. Secretary and Treasurer) should be called Acting roles. Also, all members should take the role of Acting Coordinators for a particular constituency. Where there are more than one FTI members, these members could work out a process within themselves. Having an acting role implies flexibility. All such roles can be replaced by anyone else through a competitive process (e.g. election).

Information gap
There is activity taking place on the ground (Akalpita/ AR Patil) about which most team members are not aware. A coordination mechanism was proposed to ensure that such activities are widely known within FTI.

Experience of Mumbai 227
Akalpita Paranjpe (supported by Arun Shankar) explained the process of arriving at a decision to contest MCD elections, the process followed (including how candidates were shortlisted), the results, and the lessons learnt

Key lessons learnt
- The application process for candidates must be simple.
- The entire details of the application process must be stated in advance
- The problem of reserved seats needs considerable thought
- It is very difficult to bring small, new parties together to form a bigger whole (party). It is better to get the same people on a common platform (i.e. coalition)
- Due to logistics issues within cities (traffic, lack of venues, etc.) it is necessary to build an effective conference call system for coordination and communication with all team members.
- The key messages did not percolate through to the voters due to multiple issues

Political positioning
The team first identified a key position in the political space that FTI members should aim to occupy. Examples of existing political spaces include:

US Republicans: opposition to abortion, limited government, national interest.
BJP: Hindtuva, supports business
Shiv Sena and other regional groups: son of the soil (Marathi manus)
Congress: aam aadmi/ mai-baap sarkar (sarkar will do everything)
BSP: Dalit identity
Communists: worker’s rights/ equality
The discussion identified the following potential spaces for FTI:
Economic/political

Limited government (e.g. limited taxation/ simplified taxation)
National interest (defence/ global status or presence/ foreign policy)
Freedom of speech
Sound money
Education and infrastructure (e.g. internet to reach the poor, roads)
Enabling Indians
Better prices for produce
Indian common market
Public security/ security of person/ people security
Health – approachable, affordable
Property rights
Justice
Ethical prosperity
Urban governance
Root cause of corruption – what is FTI doing about corruption?
Decentralalisation
Rewrite the Constitution
Water/ mineral rights
Agenda 365 (we should have one item for each of the first 365 days)
Social

Zero reservations
Anti-regionalism
Anti-Caste
Anti-continuing perception that India will remain poor
As a result of extensive discussion/ voting, the overarching space was prosperity, supported by limited government, security and justice.



Potential causes/ issues/ protests
The team then discussed potential causes that would help FTI occupy these political positions in the public mind.

Before identifying the specific cause/ issues, the framework for causes/ protests/ issues was identified. It was agreed that no cause that FTI promotes should go outside the following bounds:

a) A cause which FTI leads should unite people from various groups. FTI should also join/ support other like-minded positions

b) A token Gandhian protest is acceptable where FTI believes that a particular law in India is incompatible with the principles outlined in the triangle, above. (This means public opposition to the law and explaining why it is harmful.)

c) The cause/protest should be undertaken within FTI's capacity (resources).

Many ideas were identified but after discussion the following options remained on the table:

Potential causes
PILs that oppose existing policies

PIL to reduce tenure of elected assemblies from 5 to 3 years
PIL on freedom of speech
PIL to open bank with note issue rights (issuing currency)
PIL to remove discretionary powers of Ministers to allocate national resources
Causes that oppose existing policies

Flag hoisting in Kashmir
Return freebies to government (i.e. directly return a subsidy to government)
Opposing foreign aid (e.g. picketing South Block, not the donor nation’s embassy)
(The challenge of) building a Road to Freedom
Reforming media
Depoliticise local government
Allowing private news radio channels
Autorickshaw licensing
Street hawkers' problems (hafta, etc.)
Land acquisition act
Privatisation of public transport
(The challenge of) establishing a school
Marketplace for resources
Film industry liberalisation
Electoral reforms and corruption (e.g. issue re: tampering with electoral machine)
Promoting entrepreneurship
Administrative reforms
Fair trade
Abolish deficit financing (balanced budget)
Abolish labour laws/ APMC (?)
Reduce tax benefits to NGOs
Actions that increase awareness

Colleges – debating society
Conducting street plays
Platform of like-minded people
Final list
After extensive debate and voting, the following issues were selected:
1) Build Road to Freedom
2) Liberalisation of private transport
3) Flag hoisting in Kashmir
4) Electoral reforms
5) Return freebies

Each of the members/s who proposed these causes would propose next steps.

The Delhi FTI chapter experience
Dipinder explained how the Delhi chapter has grown, and outlined the various actions it has undertaken. These include:

Getting buy-in/commitment from one or two other members to help build the chapter together (for single member chapters, it may be useful to work with one or more freedom partners initially)
Regular meetings (every month) with fixed time (2nd Saturday afternoons) and fixed place, and discipline to come to these meetings (even if there is just one other person joining). More frequent (weekly or fortnightly) sub-chapter meetings (eg. Gurgaon).
Agenda in these meetings included a mix of: local political/policy issues, FTI local activities/events, more clarity about FTI structure/plans (eg. platform vs party), discussions around issues being discussed on the national forum, participation in national initiatives (eg. letters to independents activity) ,meeting with potential new members or partners (typically towards the end of the meetings) etc.
Phone chats/SMS reminders, in addition to emails via fti-delhi google group
Other meets/events around visits of outside-delhi members eg. Sanjeev, Shantanu etc.
Outreach events including at IIT Delhi, Chandigarh, 2nd Annual Conference (which included discussions with other ‘new ethical’ political outfits) etc
From one active member in August 2009 (and six other relatively inactive members), Delhi now has 13 active members and 12 relatively inactive members.

Membership process review
FTI agreed to launch a review of the membership process on FTI that would include capturing (and maintaining) phone, location information of all members (old and new), so they could be effectively connected with local chapters.

Training in leadership and political action
It was decided that training in actual political action on the ground would be coordinated by Akalpita, and JP of Lok Satta would be invited as appropriate.

Other matters
Other matters discussed included FTI’s monthly conference, review of this conference and suggestions to improve the next conference, and T-shirt sales.

Summation
Sanjeev summed up the conference and noted that this had been an extremely successful conference. We are going out with renewed confidence and focus. In particular, actions arising from this conference should be implemented and followed up.

He compared the task with that of climbing Mt. Everest. There are three stages to climbing the mountain: drawing board stage, base camp, and then the climb. We are currently at the initial stage and are preparing for the base camp when all resources, plans and actions would be ready. This includes forming a significant understanding of the political marketplace and doing appropriate work to build demand.

Our job is NOT merely to find leaders and do nothing. We are working on many fronts:
- finding the best talent in India (and converting others)
- training them in leadership (including public speaking/ local language communication)
- branding these leaders as HIGH QUALITY
- occupying specific political spaces in the public mind through strategic actions
- designing and testing the messages through intensive interaction with the people of Bharat
- preparing detailed polices so we have policy alignment as a group of leaders
- preparing all logistical (and internal communication) systems
- fund raising
- practice (dry run) of elections and electoral laws
- building a massive support base of leaders in each constituency
etc etc.

All this MUST come together first. Then the people of India will automatically welcome FTI leaders with open arms. Till the people of India want FTI leaders we know we have not done our homework properly. Homework has to be comprehensive, covering all bases.

Vote of thanks
Participants gave a round of applause to the Mumbai team for organising the wonderful conference.

Friday, March 23, 2012

The myth of the atheists exploded........

Unable to understand Vedanta and just because unqualified Braahmans/higher casts distorted the system these people revolt against the unfailing principles in the name of science. Just go through the comments..


You Never Go Full Profound

 LIJE

37 COMMENTS:

Ramesh said...
Re: That is why you never go full profound. You just stay at profound and give others the chance to find profoundness in whatever way they like.


Is there any instance when others are denied to stay at profoundness in the history of the Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism) and AS A TRUE INTENT TO BE SO and so you saying as if such a chance is denied?


Others are preached/indoctrinated here so that ultimately they start questioning and learn it themselves. Brahman is that ultimate truth which is known by this method alone where contradictions are well settled. Belief is a system for those unable to reason out critically in Hinduism and do so for their welfare. 


You people only MISINTERPRET EVERYTHING EXACTLY FOR THIS REASON‼
Lije said...
Ramesh,

I didn't mean that some people are consciously and deliberately stopping other people from attaining enlightenment. What I should have said is that some people don't recognize that there are many ways and forms of enlightenment (like The Double Rainbow) and insist that something like Brahman is the Ultimate Truth and there is only one way to get to it. That is what I consider as "going full profound"

Also, as I've said elsewhere on my blog, Enlightenment is a state of the brain. It has nothing to do with questioning something and learning something by ourselves. All that are rationalizations to ascribe meaning to the experience. That is why when you go full profound, you will deny meaning that others have found via ways which your rationalization doesn't agree with.

People like me haven't misinterpreted anything. I've always held that different people can find meaning and purpose to their lives in different ways and that to them is the ultimate realization of their lives. Show me one instance where I said anything contrary to that. It is only you who thinks there is one Ultimate Truth just because you believe so. I have never denied your experience but don't expect me or any freethinker to buy your rationalization of the experience.
Ramesh said...
Here are immediate examples of your misrepresentations:


1. Re: some people don't recognize that there are many ways and forms of enlightenment (like The Double Rainbow) and insist that something like Brahman is the Ultimate Truth and there is only one way to get to it.


It is in Hinduism that recognises many ways of enlightenment. Here people become enlightened even by analysing a simple atom, dog, crow whatever that you can name and never unique. But there is only one kind of enlightenment i.e. Ultimate truth and whether his ultimate quest has been quenched or not will be the unique test of his enlightenment.


Lije look at one thing: In Hinduism enlightenment is not a condition of state of mind/brain or experience or anything else except a simple 'Knowledge' just like 2+2=4.. Just know/digest it and over. It is that knowledge after which the ultimate quest (root cause of all pain) of the human beings is quenched. It will never happen by science. Reason: Its own ‘means’. Brain/mind/experiences etc is purely scientific as you claim. People claiming as you state do it for entirely different reasons and are never Jnani as per original tenets of the Hinduism/shastras and only those people have ruined this Hinduism. So don’t compare them with Hinduism and lose your direction. You are arguing against Hinduism not not their people. People are mostly always with frauds for lack of sufficient reasoning.


2. Re: I've always held that different people can find meaning and purpose to their lives in different ways and that to them is the ultimate realization of their lives.


This is nothing but stating that either there is no such a thing like 'truth' or 'if it exists they are as many as the number of people realizing themselves'!

How absurd!! In your world of truth people will judge each other by different units (truths, each others own experiences etc) and fight will begin among themselves thinking that they are using the same units for every day life.
If it is really so then definitely I have every right to rob others and live lavishly since that alone is what I understand from my present life! Are you agreeing? Can you ever refute me on critical reasoning? Why I should be moral? Don’t say that it is an innate nature of human beings or there is invisible hand (invisible means again blind belief one). What can be convenient to you can very well be inconvenient to me. Then why agree on common rules? Why play the fair game? Any justifications? 


Please note that by enlightenment only one thing is meant: Truth unchangeable if at all it exists and has to be unique just as units of measurement like cm, inch etc otherwise only confusion and destruction of the world with our own hands. Rest assured!
Lije said...
Ramesh,

I think I see where you are coming from. Replace this sentence "It is only you who thinks there is one Ultimate Truth just because you believe so." with "It is only you who thinks your personal experience is The Ultimate Truth just because you believe so."

That and I've clearly defined what enlightenment is. I do not equate it with "T"ruth. There are fact propositions and then there are value propositions. You are mixing both.
Ramesh said...
Dear Lije,


Re:"It is only you who thinks your personal experience is The Ultimate Truth just because you believe so."


Did you read my last but one comment? I repeat - In Hinduism enlightenment is not a condition of state of mind/brain or experience or anything else except a simple 'Knowledge' just like 2+2=4.. Just know/digest it and over. It is that knowledge after which the ultimate quest (root cause of all pain) of the human beings is quenched.......etc.



I am least interested in how you define the ‘enlightenment’; I am concerned only with the fact that you are imposing your definition on that of Sanatan Dharma. Generally, by enlightenment truth alone is sought. Let us say if E=mc2 becomes enlightenment if practically it is true. Such a sort of enlightenment isdn't experienced by man. However, it would be just like enlightenment if this equation proves practically correct and so it does. Now going by the definition (of Sanatan dharma and not the distorted yours one) By this argument E=mc2 can't be enlightenment because it is only partial expression of the 'theory of everything'. Enlightenment should mean the one by knowing which your ultimate quest is quenched forever. 


Why are you people defining the things yourself and imposing it on Vedanta, Sanatan Dharma for which they never stand and yeh! they never opposed what you said in r/o science and its achievements. Sanatan Dhamra is making such a sort of Science only precise and Healthy. See my site.


What I find in your video (of enlightenment, your sort) is joy of marvellous beauty, the joy which gets decayed with the finding of other better scenes. A joy becomes enlightenment when it is permanent, once for all. And so it doesn't remain just a joy but mind, intellect etc gets permanently stable, fully quenched for having realized (like 1+1=2, or E=mc2) what everything is, since there remain no curiosity to look after or to solve as is science finding at present.


See if you could understand the sanatan dharma in the right perspective and particularly what I have bee arguing. Yes but it requires extraordinary effort and sincerity. Lifeless things like computer can even understand Science if it fed with proper data and definitions. You are human beings. You are expected to see beyond science but knowing full well the limitations of scientific method and however with total scientific temper and critical reasoning. Since it has not been there, there is every reason to call you people biased and interpreting very different things alien to Sanatan Dharma.

One complaint against you people- we state one thing about Vedanta and Sanatana Dharma and you argue quite other things having biased with the notion of scientific methods as unfailing and absolute one. Science gets corrected when due. But why expect santan dharma to be so which is ultimate. Problem is that you do not try what it says and mean fully ignoring (for lack of critical reasoning) that it NEVER contradicts your sort of science and above all refuse to understand it by offering YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION. Too much biased and insincere in approach!
Lije said...
Enlightenment isn't where you get a theory of everything. It is an experience in the brain and the rationalization that follows.

So it is not The Ultimate Whatever. If it was, Sanatana Dharmics would have thrown out the abominable varna dharma a long time back. And wouldn't have written sexist texts like Vichar Sagar. So go figure.
Ramesh said...
Re: Enlightenment isn't where you get a theory of everything. 


That’s your definition of enlightenment. Umpteen number of times I have stated it. Who gave you the right to impose it on sanatan Dharam?


Re: It is an experience in the brain and the rationalization that follows.


Very very absurd!!! It is the joy, happiness and all that accompanies the ‘ultimate knowledge’ which is experienced and not the Brahman itself. That’s simply knowledge. It is said to be experienced in the sense that knowledge of that expels all that unquenched curiosity (and so cause of misery) that surrounds the universe and SO it gives the experience of eternal joy for having solved the mystery.


Re: So it is not The Ultimate Whatever. If it was, Sanatana Dharmics would have thrown out the abominable varna dharma a long time back..


Poor friend!! There has not been varna dharma in sanatan dharma in the sense you think. Just as you people are misinterpreting all the Itihasas so has been the fate with Varna Dharma. Do you agree with the qualifications to do certain things? If yes then so is this. It is not by birth it is by qualification to understand! Please understand. There have been many Pandits who have ruined such a Hinduism by misinterpreting the Shastras.
Lije said...
I'm not going split hairs on definitions of words. But I'll leave this here:

Now imagine these same circuits become hyperactive as sometimes happens when you have seizures originating in the temporal lobes (TLE or temporal lobe epilepsy). The result would be an intense heightening of the patient's sensory appreciation of the world and intense empathy for all beings to the extent of seeing no barriers between himself and the cosmos—the basis of religious and mystical experiences. (You lose all selfishness and become one with God.) 

>>Do you agree with the qualifications to do certain things? If yes then so is this. It is not by birth it is by qualification to understand!<<

That's a lousy argument. Show me the evidence where all children, regardless of their station of birth were given the same training, and then based on how they take up to various subjects, they were assigned vocations.

I know you can't show me because The Ultimate Whatever is so Ultimate that it can't even comprehend as basic a fact as that qualifications are a function of the environment and instead believes in Ultimate silly things like innate gunas. The Ultimate result is that Ultimately varna has no other option than to become birth based.

Here's an example of how a society does it the proper way, without making any Ultimately lame excuses.

And that is precisely why Vedanta is only confounding talk and can never pay rent. It's Ultimate social implications are so Ultimate that one can Ultimately see the Ultimate depravity of the said Ultimate implications in Ultimate action.
Arvind Iyer said...
This recently published TED talk by Jonathan Haidt enlists the many means through which people have experienced what might be called 'self-transcendence', of which very few are even remotely religious.

Also relevant maybe this recently published article on the Neurologica blog on the autonomous sensory meridian response (ASMR), which might offer clues as to why the unlikeliest of experiences maybe found compelling and even profound by us.
Ramesh said...
Here is rapid rejoinder for want of time,

Re: Show me the evidence where all children, regardless of their station of birth were given the same training, and then based on how they take up to various subjects, they were assigned vocations.


Did you forget that that training and knowledge is imparted to the pupil depending on what he questions, what interest he develops what natural instincts are prominent in him and what ability he has to overcome the same after each stage of understanding and his ability to grasp.

Lije, all cannot be given the same training. Don't you see how many meanings this 'brahman' has? Are they all true? You think yours alone is correct and is absurd‼

To start with mango and apple needs to be treated separately. Human being is not NECESSARILY so! Walya koli was robber by birth something untouchable by birth. Did not he become Valmiki Rushi greater than the Brahmin? Shabari was also degraded by birth. Did not Rama eat her fruit tasted by her? Did not see could know what the brahmins fail? Ravan was Brahmin by birth, but wasn't he treated like Rakshas due to his gunas? Wasn't Hanuman a monkey by birth? Isn't the greatest of Brahmin worship him for getting the knowledge? I haven't studied scriptures and Itihasas otherwise I would have given you the fitting examples far better!


See MY comments on http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/11/why-cant-muslims-and-christians-enter-hindu-temples/

for better understanding of the Hindu concepts.


Do your have the answers? You can't except gross PERVERSIONS as abundantly available as above.

Enlightenment: Hundred times I have told upon it. refer earlier comments. What YOU state is YOUR VERSION and never that of SANATAN DHARMA. If YOU cannot understand why malign the other? Simply because you have the freedom of expression and that others can be influenced easily my friend? Either question logically or declare it is not your area and unqualified for the same! Why feel shame for this? Sorry if you are hurt but responsibility is yours since I am being compelled to repeat the same things again and again.

I appreciate your link http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

My dear friend what I see is that link it is the inherent interest that is guided properly. Hindu varnashrama is no more different from that. When your sort of practice (above link) goes the transition of thousand of years as has been the case with sanatan dharma it resembles to that of Varna Shrama. It is the people who make it rigid and not the original hypothesis. Blame people who practise this sanatan dharma and not the very sanatan dharma. Learn the difference if you can
Ramesh said...
Re: And that is precisely why Vedanta is only confounding talk and can never pay rent. It's Ultimate social implications are so Ultimate that one can Ultimately see the Ultimate depravity of the said Ultimate implications in Ultimate action.

Quite Appreciated!That is why exactly every moment we need the Guru to interpret the things AS THEY ARE! It is the dearth of them which has ruined everything to this level in Hinduism.


You may agree that fruits of science (all the comforts like gun, bombs etc) should not get into the hands of fanatic like N Korea, Afghanishtan etc (Hinudu, Muslim, Christen including the athiests)since by Hindu term they are unqualified for the same and hence untouchable in that respect, sense and TO THAT EXTENT ALONE (availability of science etc). Is not it the duty of everybody to ensure it to THAT EXTENT ALONE? A Jnani (or rational one in scientific term) alone can decide who is fanatic here! Won't you support such a rational man?


Now the circumstances have changed. As per the Hindu laws Varnashram should get changed as per Desh and kal. (change is the law of nature- Bhagawat geeta). And this Change is always in consonance with the knowledge prevelant at a particular time and space. To this extent change should have occurred. However stupid man has revolted against the Jnana in the name of science thinking that it will ultimately reveal everything!
Lije said...
How can a student read when they haven't been taught to do so? How can a student ask questions on calculus when they haven't been taught the basics of mathematics? That is what primary education of today does. Teach the basics. Then based on the student's proclivity, they can take up specializations.

So, I ask again. Show me the evidence where all children were taught the basics. Don't quote scripture. I too can quote from Harry Potter and Lord of The Rings. 

And on the need of a guru, I've written it here. Without bambozzling the population of the need of a guru, how else can one maintain the depraved ethics of Vedanta?
Ramesh said...
Dear Lije,

1. Re: Show me the evidence where all children were taught the basics.

Before you talk of the teaching, let you talk first of BASICS. For you reading, mathematics, primary education etc is BASIC. Will you please let me know to what extent these are assumed to be basic in Sanatan Dharma in view of transmission of knowledge primarily through Shruit (hearing) and Smriti (memory) etc and how much importance has been accorded to this your sort of BASICS there? 

Dear friend, cessation of all pain (quenching of ultimate quest and other comforts of the sort of modern science being at lower level) by virtue of ‘ultimate principle’ i.e. ‘theory of everything’ alone was the goal, essence and content of the Sanatan Dharma. Keeping in view this alone the reading, interpretation etc was prohibited to other less qualified (Varnashram, women etc) and people of other faith. This did not mean that physically it was denied to them. It meant only that they did not have any authority to do so. However by qualification they did interpret the Shastras (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Shudra_Hindu_saints, http://agniveer.com/821/vedas-and-shudra/) there are many other outstanding rishis belonging to these shudras, I am least interested in such factual data. 

Till now and forever Jnana is and will be treated as ‘open’ Secret of the universe. By the term ‘open’ everybody including all castes will be open to have an access to it unlike you sense (reading, mathematics, basic, primary education, basics etc). But by term ‘secret’ only qualified/eligible will be allowed to interpret it AS THEY ARE. Aren’t you people now can read all the shastras? But alas! Only to have it perverted grossly and mislead the community with both the Sanatan Dharma and Science!! It was exactly in this sense that they were forbidden and not in technical sense (reading, mathematics, basic, primary education, basics etc) as you state. However technically things happened as you state subsequently because of the cross breed of Brahman entered this community which were no more different from your community (in respect of reason and logic please and not in respect caste by birth note). So reason, if any, should be attributed to those and not the Sanatan Dharma as I have stated so many times before in this thread.

2. Re: Don't quote scripture. I too can quote from Harry Potter and Lord of The Rings. 

How foolish! All you people write about castism, enlightenment, Jnana, Sanatan Dharma, Vedanta, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Hinduism, and there practical implications on human community.....etc only by quoting from those sources and ask me not to quote from scripture (unlike we quote from Harry potter etc).

Dear, all our thinking bears to these scripture unlike the Harry Potter etc. What the scripture is to us so is not the Harry Potter to science but it is the science to Harry Potter so. Note the difference if only you can understand. Therefore we can authoritatively state from Scriputes but you can’t from Harry Potter. Harry Potter is imagination to science, scripture is not so to us (it is so for you thing is different).

Continued.......
Ramesh said...
.....From previous
3. Re: And on the need of a guru, I've written it here

That’s what you think and not what Sanatan Dharma is! Yours only perverted for reasons so well illustrated here and there.

4. Re: Without bambozzling the population of the need of a guru, how else can one maintain the depraved ethics of Vedanta?

One cannot maintain the Vedanta except either with the help of Guru (who will initiate the follower to a level suitable to his capacity and not necessarily to the Brahman) or the one himself who knows and is put to rest ultimately on his own with the check and balances (assimilating the contradictions so abundantly prevalent in Vedas, Shastra etc) in the Vedanta. Only these two methods and no other. No Guru in Sanatan Dharma has stated me what I know of it today (they also pervert it) I myself have got satisfied with the texts on my own with like Vichar sagar. In Sanatan Dharma there is no difference between Guru and the Brahman. Test for such a Guru is: He stands quenched ultimately in every respect. Of course ‘theory of everything’ will be one of the corollaries of having his quest satisfied which science won’t be inventing for millenniums to come!

So, will you avoid grossly perverting the interpretations and be sincere in approach truly critical in reasoning and logic just to do the justice to science as reasoned out above?
Lije said...
You very conveniently side stepped the main issue – that Varna Dharma is birth based, by rambling on The Ultimate Whatever. So to bring it on track, I ask again – show me the evidence were, all children in were taught the basics. I only mentioned current school subjects as an example. Correcting for time, the basics would be something like clean your own bathroom, pickup your own shit, martial skills, memorizing stuff, math, astrology etc... Then based on how a student fares (or cannot fare), they can be assigned a Varna. Did that happen in the glorious reign of The Ultimate Whatever? No.

You put a person in the right environment, chances are good that they will develop the right skills. But The Ultimate Whatever is ignorant of that fact because it believes in nonsense like karma andgunas. Given the sycophancy showered at The Ultimate Whatever, one should expect decent morals from it.

And you perfectly illustrated the need for a guru. It is no different than what I'm saying. To appreciate only a certain kind of music, put it on a pedestal, and use the prefix “Ultimate” copiously, you definitely need to believe in the need of a guru and that guru should be in the perfect position to deliver. He should be able to show you the beauty of that music, ignoring all other forms of music.

Now for some pointless hair splitting, totally unrelated to the main point which you have side stepped – the depraved morals of The Ultimate Whatever.

There are different ways you could use scripture – one is to identify moral premises, which doesn't need the scriptures to be entirely factual. What is needed is that a set of people live by those moral premises. So if there are people who live by the morals espoused in Harry Potter, I will use Harry Potter literature to analyze the premises.

But if you tell me that there are flying broomsticks, I will laugh it off. It is an extraordinary claim and needs extraordinary evidence. Scriptures are full of such extraordinary claims.

To split the hair even more finely, I can't use Hogwarts as evidence of how schools are run in the real world. For that, I need to collect evidence from the real world – like see how schools are run in the real London. Not the fictional one.
Lije said...
I'll make it even more explicit - the very idea of Varna Dharma is fundamentally flawed. Given its premises, there is no situation in which it could not have become birth based. 

Till date, The Ultimate Whatever is oblivious to that fact and keeps pretending that it is not birth based and turns to fiction to cite evidence.
Ramesh said...
Re: You very conveniently side stepped the main issue – that Varna Dharma is birth based, by rambling on The Ultimate Whatever. So to bring it on track, I ask again – show me the evidence were, all children in were taught the basics. I only mentioned current school subjects as an example. Correcting for time, the basics would be something like clean your own bathroom, pickup your own shit, martial skills, memorizing stuff, math, astrology etc... 

I am afraid you will ever SEE the exact answers given to you! Here I go once again.

Let you be sure and intact about the fact that everything in Sanatan Dharm comes from only one thing ‘ultimate principle’ (consisting of Brahman and Maya)then may be you talk about basics, caste, women, superstitions, belief, eligibility, all super feats performed in purnas, ramayaan etc, science whatever the hell it may be in the universe. Let you be firm that this is so from our side.

Now re: clean your own bathroom, pickup your own shit etc. Abraham Lincon was by cast cobbler by birth as per my knowledge (sorry if otherwise). So do you expect him to mend his own shoes even when he became President of USA? He may do so on his own as a hobby or for his own reasons but note that he has every right to engage THE OTHER, specialists to this task because of HIS PRIORITY OF PRESIDENTIAL TASK. So my dear friend a true Brahman (or anybody) never denies to pick of his shit etc just because his priorities are different and not because he is ordained not to do so by this ultimate principle. Now re: martial skills, memorizing stuff, math, astrology etc. These sort of questions I have already answered and here I copy and paste: “…….Keeping in view this alone the reading, interpretation etc was prohibited to other less qualified (Varnashram, women etc) and people of other faith. THIS DID NOT MEAN THAT PHYSICALLY IT WAS DENIED TO THEM. IT MEANT ONLY THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY AUTHORITY TO DO SO. HOWEVER BY QUALIFICATION THEY DID INTERPRET THE SHASTRAS (E.G. HTTP://EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG/WIKI/LIST_OF_SHUDRA_HINDU_SAINTS, HTTP://AGNIVEER.COM/821/VEDAS-AND-SHUDRA/) THERE ARE MANY OTHER OUTSTANDING RISHIS BELONGING TO THESE SHUDRAS, I AM LEAST INTERESTED IN SUCH FACTUAL DATA”. 

In above reference please note that it may be martial skill, memorising stuff, maths, astrology, ayurveda, yoga whatever it may be are INTEGRAL PART OF ‘JNANA’ and accordingly alone it is imparted as above. You neglect this aspect and hence DIFFERENTIATING them from the JNANA. 

continued........
Ramesh said...
......from previous.


re: You put a person in the right environment, chances are good that they will develop the right skills. But The Ultimate Whatever is ignorant of that fact because it believes in nonsense like karma and gunas. Given the sycophancy showered at The Ultimate Whatever, one should expect decent morals from it.

There isn’t any thing like RIGHT environment and BAD environment. However the circumstances it may be, the INDIVIDUAL is always free and independent (core of Hindu philosophy). What you talk of is of the Vyavahara-ground activities. There aren’t strict rules which govern them. I repeat “
परिवर्तनहि सन्सार का नियम है/”- Bhagawat Geeta. 

All are not born equal in r/o of capacity to understand, do a thing, exhibit some talent etc. Mango seed IS MOST LIKELY to give rise to the mango tree and not that of Apple. Because it may happen that by hybridization, treatment and all that stuff it may be made to give a tree of Apple but NEVER AS A RULE. This statement of mine will be understood by those who know the POWER of science. Exactly so is the case with the system of education of Santan Dharma. Since a Skill (picking up shit, cleaning, martial acts etc) may just go perverted that the practical knowledge of such a skill is restricted to the definite class of people and NEVER AS A RULE. A Brahman student should be denied the knowledge of Vedas, Martial act etc if tendency is against the TRUE KNOWLEDGE. Similarly a Shudra by dint of his Knowledge (Which need NEVER come from Vedas, Upnishads etc but may easily come from few devotional songs addressed to Rakshasas, by acts of being Prostitute, by killing of innocents, doing adharmic acts, by picking shits etc) equals the Brahman not to talk of getting skilled at martial acts etc and which has been your main ‘issue’. Where come the question of denying it. 

Karma and Gunas go on losing their rigidity as one becomes more and more sharp in reason, logic and the same becomes nil the moment he realizes the TRUTH. Karma, Gunas, Rebirth, Heaven, Patal etc hold their validity to the extent of his logic and ability to reason. If you understand Geeta, Vichar Sagar (not just read it with biased and perverted intellect) you may understand it and may also come to know that Vichar Sagar in fact glorifies sex as in modern times and MUCH MORE the moment you UNDERSTAND IT in 7th chapter. Given the current level of your sincerity, reasoning ability you are not allowed to read those. Either you should find ‘theory of everything’ using the scientific method or search the Guru to quench your quest till then you are neither here nor there and still think you are correct‼! (science is always approximation till it finds ToE, the moment it happens, ToE will coincide with ‘ultimate principle, if not nobody will question you either. Therefore till that (infinite time?) you have to hold back.) 

If you think all this sidetracking, irrelevant then **Please do one thing: Show me the evidence where all children were NOT taught the basics.** and I will try the other way. Lets us other logic. I do not know the evidence where all children were not taught the basics. How about this, dear Lije? It may amply prove whether it is the perverted knowledge or the sincerity which is guiding you!
Lije said...
I'm judging The Ultimate Whatever by what kind of a society it resulted in – which is – a few people found a way to perpetuate power by installing a birth based system of vocations. Even though you have dishonestly shifted the burden of proof, here's the evidence you ask for: there is no mention anywhere in ancient Indian history of all children in a village being taught the same basic skills. Teaching was mostly birth based. Some texts of fiction mention sporadic instances of Varna hopping. That is all.

Regarding who is qualified to learn what, I have a much better understanding of human biology than you do. (I'm not boasting. Just stating a fact). So your analogy of mangoes and apples is untenable. Humans share a common biology and there are some consequences because of that. One has to wonder why The Ultimate Whatever is ignorant of such science.

In every comment you type, you keep exemplifying the depraved morals of The Ultimate Whatever. I posses a wide range of skills – from cleaning to mending to science to engineering to philosophy and so on. Those skills aren't mutually exclusive. That in essence sums up the moral bankruptcy of The Ultimate Whatever. The very idea that specialization in something precludes some other things is the signature rotten stench of casteism.
Lije said...
Some more evidence:

Indian populations, although currently huge in number, were also founded by relatively small bands of individuals, the study suggests. Overall, the picture that emerges is of ancient genetic mixture, says Reich, followed by fragmentation into small, isolated ethnic groups, which were then kept distinct for thousands of years because of limited intermarriage — a practice also known as endogamy.

This genetic evidence refutes the claim that the Indian caste structure was a modern invention of British colonialism, the authors say. "This idea that caste is thousands of years old is a big deal," says Nicole Boivin, an archaeologist who studies South Asian prehistory at the University of Oxford, UK. "To say that endogamy goes back so far, and that genetics shows it, is going to be controversial to many anthropologists." Boivin fears that the study might be 'spun' by politicians seeking to maintain caste structures in India, and she calls on social scientists and geneticists to collaborate on such "highly politicized" issues.


Which exposes the intellectual bankruptcy of the likes of Agniveer.
Ramesh said...
1. Re: I'm judging The Ultimate Whatever by what kind of a society it resulted in – which is – a few people found a way to perpetuate power by installing a birth based system of vocations.

Just because E=mc2 ULTIMATELY resulted in destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima blaming the Einstein or E=mc2 can only be attributed to you people!

Dear it is the people who should be blamed and it is exactly for them that most of the rules like caste (which is specific to qualification) are framed so that people like those who played havoc like in Japan are barred from the knowledge of E=mc2. (Request use the relevant sense to understand this one if possible)

2. Re: Even though you have dishonestly shifted the burden of proof, here's the evidence you ask for: there is no mention anywhere in ancient Indian history of all children in a village being taught the same basic skills

It is you who are blaming against Ultimate principle. It is just natural that burden is yours .Don’t you know the simple law in real life which the courts all over the world follow‼‼‼ Didn’t you prove your flawed logic?

3. Re: Regarding who is qualified to learn what, I have a much better understanding of human biology than you do. (I'm not boasting. Just stating a fact). 

The ultimate principle is nothing except a fact. Who are you (people) to know the fact pending the theory of everything. Is there anybody to state who is correct between us? Impossible [That is why (one of the reason) the ultimate principle].

4. Re: So your analogy of mangoes and apples is untenable. Humans share a common biology and there are some consequences because of that. 

Dear Lije, there are still finer elements which constitute the biology (like chemical reactions, molecules, atoms- in fact there isn’t anything like biology except maths, physics, chemistry) which in fact are common between mangoes and apples. That is why a stage may definitely come when mango seed will give apples in future. And this is the consequence of those common things! So do you agree that I know better biology than you? 

5. Re: One has to wonder why The Ultimate Whatever is ignorant of such science.
Still any doubt who is ignorant of the science in view of above FACTS as argued?


....continued.
Ramesh said...
....from previous


6. Re: I posses a wide range of skills – from cleaning to mending to science to engineering to philosophy and so on. 

What is the wonder then? So am I. So were many Brahmans, kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras (you may cite contrary examples if any).

7. Re: That in essence sums up the moral bankruptcy of The Ultimate Whatever. 

Still any doubt as to the moral bankruptcy of you people in view of last comment?

8. Re: The very idea that specialization in something precludes some other things is the signature rotten stench of casteism.

Which precise statement did you draw the above inference? Or just the stench of your rotten reasoning, logic?

9. Re: ….This genetic evidence refutes the claim that the Indian caste structure was a modern invention of British colonialism,…..

Who denied that castism is not a part of Sanatan Dharma? Issue has been whether it was birth based or Patrata (eligibility) based! Why jump from this to that and blame others for similar things? 

Will you be ever logical and reasonable while arguing? Still do you find yourself sincere enough?
Lije said...
Science is not an ethical system. Something like secular humanism is. More importantly science doesn't use the prefix "Ultimate". Being defeasible is at its core.

You again conviniently side stepped the evidence I gave you. Firstly, you don't have any evidence other than from fiction to say that Varna is not birth based. When I did show you the evidence, you keep making lame excuses. Communism is perfect on paper. It leads to the perfect society. But that is not how it should be judged. You look at how it fared in the real world.

Did you even read the PNAS paper I linked to?

What kind of an inane argument is that mango seeds can give apples in the future? Of course, given knowledge is probabilistic, it is possible that mangoes become apples. But it takes a special kind of daftness to latch onto very small probabilities and flaunt it as being extremely probable.

Even then, we humans are already here. In the present. It takes an even more special kind of daftness to ignore that and fantasize about hypotethicals.

Did you even read the Agniveer nonsense you linked to? The Nature news article I linked to is in direct contradiction to it.

Finally,

Is there anybody to state who is correct between us?

Yes. When it comes to science, that is easy. You do an experiment. If you say you can levitate, I'll simply ask you to jump off a building. That settles who is correct and who is not.

When it comes to subjective experiences, there is no easy way other than to take what one says on face value. That is why Harry Potter is real. That is also why Vedanta is just gobbly-gook (not because it is inherently nonsensical. But because of its evangelists and preachers who have no way of showing x other than to say x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x)
Ramesh said...
1. Re: Science is not an ethical system. Something like secular humanism is. More importantly science doesn't use the prefix "Ultimate". Being defeasible is at its core.

That’s you people’s definition of science. The vedantic science includes all that what you call plus ethics, ultimate, castism, Brahman and all stuff etc they are all scientific. That’s why hundred times I have told that Vedata never crosses modern science but includes all that which science may know after theory of everything. Do you remember? Why impose your one on us? We aren’t contradicting your science!

2. re: You again conviniently side stepped the evidence I gave you..........

I repeat your evidence: there is no mention anywhere in ancient Indian history of all children in a village being taught the same basic skills. Teaching was mostly birth based. Some texts of fiction mention sporadic instances of Varna hopping. That is all.

Evidently it is lame evidence as vividly cleared earlier. You haven’t refuted them. Instead your real evidence is this: “Communism is perfect on paper. It leads to the perfect society. But that is not how it should be judged. You look at how it fared in the real world.” And I answered it like this: Just because E=mc2 ULTIMATELY resulted in destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima blaming the Einstein or E=mc2 can only be attributed to you people! Did you ignore it purposely? There is a link between communism on paper and its faring in real world, link being that of Human beings. If this human being is not governed properly nothing is sufficient for him. Hindu rules provide for that exactly. 

3. re: What kind of an inane argument is that mango seeds can give apples in the future? Of course, given knowledge is probabilistic, it is possible that mangoes become apples. But it takes a special kind of daftness to latch onto very small probabilities and flaunt it as being extremely probable.

Can you re-read what I stated? I repeat I stated: “Mango seed IS MOST LIKELY to give rise to the mango tree and not that of Apple. Because it may happen that by hybridization, treatment and all that stuff it may be made to give a tree of Apple but NEVER AS A RULE.” Do you know about metal transmutation? It is exactly similar to that!! Isn’t that 100% sure. No probability!! Simple science but may take far more scientific development. Just lack of understanding as to what I say. Point was that we have to effect such transmutation/mango to apple etc whereas among human beings it can happen on their own with or without good environment! See if you could get the point after my repeated attempts!!

Isn’t your link PNAS paper irrelevant/misplaced one in the above context?

My agniveer link was limited to as to what the Vedas are to tell about Shudras. More than this I am not interested in that at present here.
Ramesh said...
...from previous

4. re: Is there anybody to state who is correct between us? Yes. When it comes to science, that is easy. You do an experiment. If you say you can levitate, I'll simply ask you to jump off a building. That settles who is correct and who is not.

My dear friend I am talking about we, the human beings and what we see (say biology as per original reference). In other words I am talking about matter born consciousness (we human beings, the one who judges) and the matter (building, levitating, universe and all that). Who is correct? Either matter born consciousness or the matter itself? Who will judge? Isn’t the matter itself since it is that which is there ultimately? WHO established the reality of matter after all (and all that constituting the scientific method)? What a nonsense and foolishness!! I talk one thing you take it different!! Is it the reasoning, logic of you people? Horrible!!

5. re: When it comes to subjective experiences, there is no easy way other than to take what one says on face value. That is why Harry Potter is real.

So is the dream real while we are in the dream! But there is a state called waking which declares that dream is illusion. Does the science (universe) know the state from where it come? How etc. Either wait for theory of everything or be in illusion like dream! Am I correct? Vedanta states that there is hardly any difference between the reality of the Harry Potter and the relative real universe!! Know it using the ultimate principle, if you can’t approach the Guru appropriate.

6. Re: That is also why Vedanta is just gobbly-gook (not because it is inherently nonsensical. But because of its evangelists and preachers who have no way of showing x other than to say x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x)

We never say x is x because x is x. Instead we say x is x because there isn’t, in fact, anything like x. Still we call it x till such a time when we see (realize, enlighten) that there is not anymore x including the one who asks it except the illusion! It is exactly for this reason that it is the science which suffers from infinite regress and never the Vedanta though it appears it so because of the perverted logic of you people. Science will cease from suffering this problem of infinite regress till ‘theory of everything’ is found. After that it will be same as that of Vedanta.

This last point of comment should convincingly prove the rot, perverted logic/reason, gross bias within you people. 

If not then at present my transmutation technology (say reason, logic) to change you people from say mango (contrary to ultimate principle) to apple (pro ultimate principle) will be insufficient till such a moment we find ‘theory of everything’. Till that period you will be uqualified/ineligible and hence of the caste of like shudras confined to the task of research/technology and will be barred from APPLYING the same to the HUMAN SOCIETY else you will cause the havoc like that of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I am just seeking the political system which will ensure it. Help the cause for betterment and survival of all!!!
Lije said...
Let's remember that it is the depraved ethics of The Ultimate Whatever that is under the spotlight. You indulged in what-aboutery by citing e=mc2. But as I said, science is not an ethical system. So any argument along those lines is a strawman.

So shining the light back on, you earlier said "the INDIVIDUAL is always free and independent (core of Hindu philosophy).". Had you really read the paper I linked to, you would have seen why it is so very relevant - relevant to the extent that it entirely rubbishes the core of Hindu philosophy. If you think the paper is too technical to read, I'll try to find a simpler source.
Ramesh said...
1. Re: Let's remember that it is the depraved ethics of The Ultimate Whatever that is under the spotlight. 

Let me correct it as: It is not the depraved ethics of the Ultimate Whatever that is under the spotlight but instead it the logic and scientific reasoning which decides (proves or disproves) as to the depraved OR OTHERWISE ethics of the ultimate whatever which is under the spotlight.

SO I THINK THIS SHOULD PROVE THE STRAWMAN ARGUMENT OF YOURS!!

2. Re: Had you really read the paper I linked to, you would have seen why it is so very relevant - relevant to the extent that it entirely rubbishes the core of Hindu philosophy

Doesn’t "the INDIVIDUAL is always free and independent (core of Hindu philosophy)" allows you to remain what you are and what I am? Do you mean we are same in our approach to life, universe? Never. That is what core of Hindu philosophy is! I never meant that molecules and laws governing the chemical reactions occurring in brain etc are different from person to person as you seem to understand. If your linked paper still mean different why not you put its summary in a paragraph of few lines so that I can understand you better and see how it was relevant?

3. Yes, you have left a good numbers of questions unanswered which will simply explode the myth of you people’s ethics! Please use to think before you write a comment on Ramayana, Mahabharat, Puranas, Vedas and all that matters for the sake sanctity of reason and logic which runs common to both of us.
Lije said...
I see you still haven't read that paper. It probably takes the same amount of time to read it as it takes you to repeatedly whine about logic and reason.

The nonsense of Karma and Gunas lies not in the fact that humans are indeed different from each other (in some aspects), but in the fact that they completely ignore the effects of environment and magically expect a person to rise against them (that should do in way of the gist of that paper). They then use that excuse to perpetuate a system of birth based oppression. Which in effect is what The Ultimate Whatever is Ultimately capable of - camoflaging depraved ethics by profuse use of the prefix "Ultimate".
Ramesh said...
Thanks for providing the essence of the linked paper. I appreciate this observation and do sympathises with it, I did become emotional and got touched, it hurt me badly as I read it explicitly since that has what happened in Hinduism and is exactly the reason why we find the criticisers like you and nirmukta.

There are three elements:
1. Ignorance of the effects of environment 
2. magically expecting a person to rise against them
3. use the excuse to perpetuate a system of birth based oppression 

I have clarified each them as follows respectively

1. “Ignorance of effects of environment”- In fact the scientific universe is the great environment. Here the whole of Hindu scriptures (starting with Vedas, Upnishadas, Puranas, ramayaan, mahabharat ....etc) is the Hindu version of this environment called the ultimate one. Do remember that it is simply one version of the probable 10^500 (However in vedantic view ABSOLUTELY infinite numbers) versions that latest scientific research shows (Vadhavan blog). 

In view of this it is wrong to argue that Sanatan dharma ignores the effects of the environment. Hinduism accepts the responsibility of creating the environment (not good or bad) called MAYA.

2. “magically expecting a person to rise against them”. Wrong. Please note that only HUMAN BEINGS are expected to rise against them since it is the only species that QUESTIONS AND POSSES THE QUALITY CALLED QUEST. The moment they (shudra or anybody lower than them) raise a question that’s a beginning of their rise against the environment. AND THIS ALONE IS THE PURPOSE OF THE ENVIRONMENT AND TILL THIS HAPPENS THERE IS A THING LIKE GUNAS AND KARMAS. Refer: Vichar Sagar for this.

3. “use the excuse to perpetuate a system of birth based oppression”. I answered it like this: Just because E=mc2 ULTIMATELY resulted in destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima blaming the Einstein or E=mc2 can only be attributed to you people! 

Dear let us assimilate the fact that it were the unqualified Shudras (though Brahmans by birth) which used this knowledge of E=mc2 (say ultimate principle) for destruction of Japan (perpetuation of a system of birth based oppression). So let us blame these politicians (braahmans by birth not by qualification) who got hold of the knowledge (though ultimately imaginary one) using which they bombed the innocents. My purpose lies in rooting them out and re-establishing the knowledge as it is!

So dear it is not the ultimate which is responsible but the middlemen who twists the things. Just because you received the empty parcel you need not blame the sender. Confirm if postman had played the mischief! 

That is why GURU was placed on par with the Brahman. It were the ill Gurus who played the mischief—ref: Bhagawat Puran.
Lije said...
The environment - A child born into a family of manual scavengers. The family isn't allowed in some parts of the village as they are "impure".

The magical expectation - The child should be able to learn complex subjects on his/her own. He/she should have the innate karma given gunas for that. (By complex subjects I mean something like arithmetic/algebra which is required for something like the post of a tax administrator. No need to split hairs on this).

The excuse - "The fact that a child is born in such a low family is evidence that he/she has accumilated bad karma from the past life. If the cosmic laws will, then the child will magically acquire knowledge of complex subjects and will hop Varnas. But we will not do a single thing, a single thing to teach the child anything. Gunas decide what a person is capable of. Since the child has no knowledge of math, it is evidence that he/she lacks the required gunas."

I don't care how good a system is on paper or what its apologists think how great the system is. Talk is cheap. Talk is worthless when it can't walk the talk. Statements like "Good for all", "Justice for all" are cheap talk. Where is the implementation?

An ethical system like secular humanism doesn't claim to the perfect system or use superlative adjectives. It accepts that it can go wrong and since no superlative adjectives are used, there are few ego issues in clingling on to outdated dogma. I've linked to how one such system fared in Finland. The Ultimate Whatever has been in existence for thousands of years. So, where's the path with the footprints of the talk?
Ramesh said...
Dear Lije,

It appears that you converted the issue of ‘PRINCIPLE/THEORY of Vedantic prudence’ into the ‘ACTUAL PRACTICE of Vedantic prudence’. Needless to say that I entirely agree with you on what has been actually observed and so has been the case with the hundreds of Sanatan saints throughout the 2nd millennia like Jnaneshwar, Tukaram, Namadev, Ramadas, Basaveshwar etc who are still rectifying the system ……

However here I think I am arguing about the very ‘PRINCIPLE/THEORY of Vedantic prudence’ and not the actual practice by agreeing the practice is in contravention to the original. And entirely DISAGREE that actual practice can anymore be attributed to the ‘original theory’ and illustrated the same with remarks like “Dear let us assimilate the fact that it were the unqualified Shudras (though Brahmans by birth) which used this knowledge of E=mc2 (say ultimate principle) for destruction of Japan (perpetuation of a system of birth based oppression). So let us blame these politicians (braahmans by birth not by qualification) who got hold of the knowledge (though ultimately imaginary one) using which they bombed the innocents. My purpose lies in rooting them out and re-establishing the knowledge as it is!”

Vedantic science comprises of all including material science, ethics and all that unknown. 

To start with Hindu system of school education was something on the lines of that of Finland (as proved by the Vedantic discussions etc)however during the course of time it turned into what we witness it today and so is likely to be with the Finland system unless and until every moment RIGHT TEACHER (GURU) ensures the logic and reason behind such an education so that desired effect doesn’t suffer. I entirely agree that Hinduism failed to sustain the continuous chain of such enlightened (for this unique understanding) Teachers.

And hence the need of such Jnanies (teachers) who will cleanse the system so that probable disaster in the form of ultimate science (I call it ultimate because that alone will be thought of as true in modern times and not because it not falsifiable) since definitely there are the persons in the present world who are unqualified or wield the power either in the name of religion or otherwise.

So before proceeding further help me confirm whether you are arguing about the ‘ultimate principle’ or ‘its actual practice’ or ‘correcting the system’! I originally deal only with the ‘ultimate principle’. OR still adamant saying that it is the consequence which decides the truth of principle (like attributing shooting a man with gun to the invention of gun by the science or attributing the Nagasaki disaster to the development of atom bomb by the science)? OR else prove these examples are irrelevant and misplaced.
Lije said...
I have already shown that the principle itself is wrong. You weren't even willing to read that argument (the PNAS paper). There is no such thing as free-will, where free-will is defined as - given the exact same situation, including your enivironment, you cannot chose to act differently. The Ultimate Whatever believes in such a free will in the name of gunas and karma.

And that is precisly why there never could have been a situation like that in Finland. That system believes that basic education is a fundamental right. Had it believed in gunas and karma, there would be no basis for that fundamental right. The right exists because it believes that equality means equal opportunity. The key words are "equal opportunity".

An individual is never free from the environment. That is why The Ultimate Whatever is incapable of understanding "equal opportunity". That is why it is the Ultimate failure in principle, and in practice.
Ramesh said...
Re: The Ultimate Whatever believes in such a free will in the name of gunas and karma.

So do you mean that for Ultimate principle ‘gunas and karma’ are basic to the ‘free will’? See also if you could explain what WE (not PNAS) mean by free will. Please confirm this and my next comment will follow. Will you for the sake of sincerity of your arguments? 

Also see if it is possible for you to keep the same goal post either of principle or of practice!

Waiting...
Lije said...
I don't care about what you mean by free-will. I have already defined what I mean by it. To simplify it, free-will ignores that we are fully caused beings and as such does not take the environment into consideration. Gunas and karma do the same mistake. 

Arguing on definitions is pointless hair-splitting. Just substitute the word with its meaning. I've already given you plenty by way of meaning.
Ramesh said...
Thanks Lije,

Re: To simplify it, free-will ignores that we are fully caused beings and as such does not take the environment into consideration. Gunas and karma do the same mistake. This much information is quite sufficient for me.

In fact in the ultimate principle except Brahman (absolute truth) everything is environment called Maya-relative truth (Ma meaning no +Ya mening this whole universe-like dream or Harry potter). Thus we-(whole universe) as per ultimate principle are never a caused one[ just as no cause can be attributed to the events in dream/harry potter though IT APPEARS TO BE SO] and still we find dream/Harry potter to be real SO LONG WE ARE sleeping/in a state of imagination since there is a state called waking (for dream) and relative truth (for Harry potter) to which when compared we can know what the truth is. But there isn’t a state in the day to day life of human beings (except Vedantic parmarthic) in relation to which waking can be felt like a dream. That is why this Maya is also called to be Mithya. Brahman cause nothing not even Maya. Both never contradict but complement (this is ultimate principle). 

Where does the ultimate principle espouses the cause of free will? Does it differ from gunas and karma etc if any? Never! There are more than one theories of creation of universe in Vedas. There is host of dharmic karmkand, Gunas, Karma, past life, rebirth, paap-punya, heaven, hell etc are all created (not as truths) and correspond to the different states, stages of the human beings in the present life itself and are DESIGINED SO THAT ULTIMATELY IT HELPS HIM TO GET RID OF THE GRIEF, PAIN FROM WHICH HE HAS BEEIN SUFFERING. All this process being complicated and skilfully dealt at, interpreted by the qualified Guru (teachers) only.

There isn’t any arrangement in scientific world which can hold a man ACCOUNTABLE (theory of invisible hand being highly insufficient) as a result of which worldly prosperity, running behind quest which will always be unquenched (illusion) can only be the goal of human beings and hence cause of misery, destruction in the end.

If you find anything contrary in the ultimate principle please quote it.

So are you yourself propagating your own version of ‘ultimate whatever’ and proving it nonsense you yourself again? Have you ever tried to know the most basic concept of Maya? If not interested with what authority you people argue against Sanatan Dharma in the absence theory of everything? Which yardstick do you use to establish the absolute reality of scientific methods/science? If it is relative how would you differentiate it from Vedantic Maya? There is Brahman which accounts for the infinite regress of the maya what is there to account for your sort of relative universe-scientific methods?

In the absence of satisfactory answers to all the above why don’t you think you are all espousing the wayward, groundless reasoning just BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN LAPSE IN THE PRACTICLA APPLICAITONS OF ULTIMATE PRINCIPLE?


Caution: Avoid slipping into change of goal post from that of principles to practical applications ref. Earlier comments of mine.
Lije said...
My sighs could produce a tornado. We have people being discriminated against heavily, just because of a birth based oppression system, which is due to the factors explained in my comments above. And yet here you are, talking about how it is all maya, all designed to deliver them from pain. Promise heaven (deliverance from 'illusion') and arrogate gatekeepers (Gurus) for that heaven. But don't do a thing to remove a flawed system. Mother Theresa would have been so very proud of this Ultimate Principle. I'm done with this discussion.
Ramesh said...
Re: We have people being discriminated against heavily, just because of a birth based oppression system ...But don't do a thing to remove a flawed system.

That’s altogether different issue and effort has been there as explained earlier. But this oppression, discrimination is not because of the factors explained in your comments but because of MISINTRERPRETATIONS just like you people do abundantly.

Essence: Criticism should be because of the oppression, discrimination and not because there is necessarily a fault with the principles, values which it cherishes. Issue should be that of ‘REFORM’ and not ‘REVOLT/REBELLION’ that too in the name of SCIENCE!

Anyway discussion was quite better than at Nirmukta forum though you people always miss sincerity, logic and reason and change of goal post though others are barred, warned for the same reason!

Thanks for the freedom offered here, anyway.