tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11158191719720153022024-03-12T18:02:10.002-07:00Ensuring the Ideal worldTo accord the human beings the true 'scientific temper' to ensure the HEALTHY development of science and technology.Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-25433601384752772072016-02-16T04:10:00.003-08:002016-02-16T04:10:36.770-08:00<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
Please join the group,<br /><br />without philosophical basis or valid scientific theory or something like basic knowledge no meaning is going to be accorded to you, this society and whatsoever else.<br /><br />Learn all this and contribute to the sustenance of humanity by joining this group..........<br /><br />https://www.facebook.com/groups/683184211786307/?ref=bookmarks<br />
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Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-79078433377398275592012-04-15T09:32:00.001-07:002012-04-15T09:32:07.668-07:00Key outcomes from FTI’s third annual conference (February 2012, Mumbai)On April 15, 2012, in Freedom Team, by Sanjeev Sabhlok<br />
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FTI’s third annual conference was held on 18 and 19 February 2012 in Mumbai.<br />
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Participants:<br />
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Participated on both days (17 members): Supratim Basu, Vishal Singh, Piyush Bansal, Sameer Panje, LK Kandpal, Akalpita Paranjpe, AR Patil, Venkat (Barry) Bharathan, KK Verma, Arvind Ilamaran, Stalin Anbalagan, Vijay Mohan, Arun Shankar, Sanjeev Sabhlok, Anubhava Srivastava, Anubhav Lal, Dipinder Sekhon.<br />
1 ½ days (1 member): Rahul Pandit<br />
1 day (2 members): Kamal Kishore Sharma and Sandeep Shelke<br />
½ day (1 member): Shantanu Bhagwat<br />
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In all, 21 members (out of well over 100) attended. Many members who attended previous conferences could not make it. Some members (like Sanjeev) attend only every alternate one due to the costs involved). While not ideal, the conference provided sufficient evidence, if any is needed, of the high quality of individuals who have joined FTI.<br />
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Participants who remained at about 5 pm on the second day (Sunday) are depicted in the photo below.<br />
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(Click above image for larger image)<br />
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This blog post summarises the discussions and focuses on key agreements:<br />
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FTI’s roles and responsibilities<br />
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A concern was raised by that absence of clear roles could be a root cause of a perception among some people that “no action was happening in FTI”. While FTI has some clear (e.g. Secretary, Treasurer, FTI managers group, etc.) there was need to get greater focus.<br />
<br />
It was noted that FTI had successfully completed a large number of projects so far. Some of these include, with key project leaders indicated in parentheses:<br />
<br />
a) The website and logo (Anil/ Anubhava)<br />
b) Registration of FTI (LK Kandpal/ Ajay Anand)<br />
c) Letters to independents (Ajay)<br />
d) IT system including Forum (Anubhava)<br />
e) Rules of FTI (Supratim/Kamal)<br />
f) Brochure (Supratim)<br />
g) Outreach events (numerous) – e.g. Shantanu (across India), Anil (Allahabad), Sanjeev (Delhi, Guwahati), Sanjay Mehrotra (Bangalore) (supported by LKK, Dipinder, Suneeta, etc.)<br />
h) Magazine – Sanjeev<br />
i) Management of new applicants: FTI Managers (Anupam, Ajay)<br />
j) Organisation of annual conferences: Mumbai and Delhi chapters<br />
k) etc. etc.<br />
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FTI doesn't have money or command structure to motivate action. It also doesn’t want a command structure. What is needed is a set of well-defined causes/projects that will motivate members and get greater participation.<br />
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Decision:<br />
It was decided to streamline FTI’s roles to get results and increase momentum. It was agreed that all causes/ projects should have volunteer coordinator as team leader/coordinator/project manager. Members who volunteered for such roles would then provide their proposals to the FTI Forum, outlining what they will do and the support they need.<br />
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Potential roles:<br />
Various roles were identified. Participants also offered to undertake specific roles. The following is an illustrative list. The names allocated against these area have been removed from the published list:<br />
<br />
Web-cordinator<br />
College outreach coordinator<br />
Marketing coordinator<br />
Policy coordinator/s<br />
Sharing across local chapters coordinator<br />
Reaching out to renowned personalities<br />
Media and PR coordinator<br />
Networking with groups, associations, occupations, small business<br />
Events coordinator:<br />
School outreach coordinator<br />
Branding FTI<br />
Web community creation<br />
Collecting membership fee<br />
Membership Process<br />
Blogging<br />
Writing in the media<br />
Membership drive<br />
Funding needs assessment<br />
Simplification of policy documents<br />
Standard operating procedure (SOP) coordinator<br />
Induction coordinator<br />
Social network coordinator<br />
Facebook coordinator<br />
Twittter coordinator<br />
Electronic media coordinator<br />
Freedom Partner group coordinator<br />
Communication coordinator<br />
Internal communications coordinator<br />
Content generation for website<br />
Internal newsletter (summary of forum and google group info)<br />
Ground work coordinator (e.g. leveraging issues)<br />
etc.<br />
Flexibility on policy<br />
Should FTI seek tight coherence on policy positions or whether we members should be allowed some latitude on policies?<br />
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It was agreed that some flexibility, within a tight boundary of liberty, was acceptable, along with an opportunity for debate and discussion.<br />
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New members should be encouraged to test their understanding. Older members must have some patience with these discussions, and help new members to reach coherence. Policy discussions are the best way for new members to actually learn liberty and capitalism.<br />
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However, we are not in the business of changing the mindsets of dedicated socialists or communists – so, our joining conditions would continue to insist on adherence to classical liberalism. Fundamentals/ basics of classical liberalism can not be compromised.<br />
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Leadership process<br />
A question was raised about FTI’s leadership process. Why would anyone contribute to FTI’s growth if they did not know whether their work would be recognised when decisions are taken by FTI to nominate people for constituencies. And what would happen, for instance, if 10 FTI members wanted to contest from the Gurgaon constituency, how would this conflict be resolved?<br />
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While there is no precise model on FTI for such leadership, it is clearly understood that the team, through its own deliberations, will arrive at processes for such matters at the appropriate time. It is expected that the contributions made by team members would be pivotal in a particular member’s prospects in a particular situation.<br />
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It was agreed that FTI must respect the contributions of members of the team and acknowledge these contributions. There must be a culture of giving credit to members who lead (and deliver) various projects. (FTI is working on a document to publish successful projects undertaken by FTI members so far)<br />
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It was also agreed that all roles (except those which are legally required, e.g. Secretary and Treasurer) should be called Acting roles. Also, all members should take the role of Acting Coordinators for a particular constituency. Where there are more than one FTI members, these members could work out a process within themselves. Having an acting role implies flexibility. All such roles can be replaced by anyone else through a competitive process (e.g. election).<br />
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Information gap<br />
There is activity taking place on the ground (Akalpita/ AR Patil) about which most team members are not aware. A coordination mechanism was proposed to ensure that such activities are widely known within FTI.<br />
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Experience of Mumbai 227<br />
Akalpita Paranjpe (supported by Arun Shankar) explained the process of arriving at a decision to contest MCD elections, the process followed (including how candidates were shortlisted), the results, and the lessons learnt<br />
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Key lessons learnt<br />
- The application process for candidates must be simple.<br />
- The entire details of the application process must be stated in advance<br />
- The problem of reserved seats needs considerable thought<br />
- It is very difficult to bring small, new parties together to form a bigger whole (party). It is better to get the same people on a common platform (i.e. coalition)<br />
- Due to logistics issues within cities (traffic, lack of venues, etc.) it is necessary to build an effective conference call system for coordination and communication with all team members.<br />
- The key messages did not percolate through to the voters due to multiple issues<br />
<br />
Political positioning<br />
The team first identified a key position in the political space that FTI members should aim to occupy. Examples of existing political spaces include:<br />
<br />
US Republicans: opposition to abortion, limited government, national interest.<br />
BJP: Hindtuva, supports business<br />
Shiv Sena and other regional groups: son of the soil (Marathi manus)<br />
Congress: aam aadmi/ mai-baap sarkar (sarkar will do everything)<br />
BSP: Dalit identity<br />
Communists: worker’s rights/ equality<br />
The discussion identified the following potential spaces for FTI:<br />
Economic/political<br />
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Limited government (e.g. limited taxation/ simplified taxation)<br />
National interest (defence/ global status or presence/ foreign policy)<br />
Freedom of speech<br />
Sound money<br />
Education and infrastructure (e.g. internet to reach the poor, roads)<br />
Enabling Indians<br />
Better prices for produce<br />
Indian common market<br />
Public security/ security of person/ people security<br />
Health – approachable, affordable<br />
Property rights<br />
Justice<br />
Ethical prosperity<br />
Urban governance<br />
Root cause of corruption – what is FTI doing about corruption?<br />
Decentralalisation<br />
Rewrite the Constitution<br />
Water/ mineral rights<br />
Agenda 365 (we should have one item for each of the first 365 days)<br />
Social<br />
<br />
Zero reservations<br />
Anti-regionalism<br />
Anti-Caste<br />
Anti-continuing perception that India will remain poor<br />
As a result of extensive discussion/ voting, the overarching space was prosperity, supported by limited government, security and justice.<br />
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Potential causes/ issues/ protests<br />
The team then discussed potential causes that would help FTI occupy these political positions in the public mind.<br />
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Before identifying the specific cause/ issues, the framework for causes/ protests/ issues was identified. It was agreed that no cause that FTI promotes should go outside the following bounds:<br />
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a) A cause which FTI leads should unite people from various groups. FTI should also join/ support other like-minded positions<br />
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b) A token Gandhian protest is acceptable where FTI believes that a particular law in India is incompatible with the principles outlined in the triangle, above. (This means public opposition to the law and explaining why it is harmful.)<br />
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c) The cause/protest should be undertaken within FTI's capacity (resources).<br />
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Many ideas were identified but after discussion the following options remained on the table:<br />
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Potential causes<br />
PILs that oppose existing policies<br />
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PIL to reduce tenure of elected assemblies from 5 to 3 years<br />
PIL on freedom of speech<br />
PIL to open bank with note issue rights (issuing currency)<br />
PIL to remove discretionary powers of Ministers to allocate national resources<br />
Causes that oppose existing policies<br />
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Flag hoisting in Kashmir<br />
Return freebies to government (i.e. directly return a subsidy to government)<br />
Opposing foreign aid (e.g. picketing South Block, not the donor nation’s embassy)<br />
(The challenge of) building a Road to Freedom<br />
Reforming media<br />
Depoliticise local government<br />
Allowing private news radio channels<br />
Autorickshaw licensing<br />
Street hawkers' problems (hafta, etc.)<br />
Land acquisition act<br />
Privatisation of public transport<br />
(The challenge of) establishing a school<br />
Marketplace for resources<br />
Film industry liberalisation<br />
Electoral reforms and corruption (e.g. issue re: tampering with electoral machine)<br />
Promoting entrepreneurship<br />
Administrative reforms<br />
Fair trade<br />
Abolish deficit financing (balanced budget)<br />
Abolish labour laws/ APMC (?)<br />
Reduce tax benefits to NGOs<br />
Actions that increase awareness<br />
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Colleges – debating society<br />
Conducting street plays<br />
Platform of like-minded people<br />
Final list<br />
After extensive debate and voting, the following issues were selected:<br />
1) Build Road to Freedom<br />
2) Liberalisation of private transport<br />
3) Flag hoisting in Kashmir<br />
4) Electoral reforms<br />
5) Return freebies<br />
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Each of the members/s who proposed these causes would propose next steps.<br />
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The Delhi FTI chapter experience<br />
Dipinder explained how the Delhi chapter has grown, and outlined the various actions it has undertaken. These include:<br />
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Getting buy-in/commitment from one or two other members to help build the chapter together (for single member chapters, it may be useful to work with one or more freedom partners initially)<br />
Regular meetings (every month) with fixed time (2nd Saturday afternoons) and fixed place, and discipline to come to these meetings (even if there is just one other person joining). More frequent (weekly or fortnightly) sub-chapter meetings (eg. Gurgaon).<br />
Agenda in these meetings included a mix of: local political/policy issues, FTI local activities/events, more clarity about FTI structure/plans (eg. platform vs party), discussions around issues being discussed on the national forum, participation in national initiatives (eg. letters to independents activity) ,meeting with potential new members or partners (typically towards the end of the meetings) etc.<br />
Phone chats/SMS reminders, in addition to emails via fti-delhi google group<br />
Other meets/events around visits of outside-delhi members eg. Sanjeev, Shantanu etc.<br />
Outreach events including at IIT Delhi, Chandigarh, 2nd Annual Conference (which included discussions with other ‘new ethical’ political outfits) etc<br />
From one active member in August 2009 (and six other relatively inactive members), Delhi now has 13 active members and 12 relatively inactive members.<br />
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Membership process review<br />
FTI agreed to launch a review of the membership process on FTI that would include capturing (and maintaining) phone, location information of all members (old and new), so they could be effectively connected with local chapters.<br />
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Training in leadership and political action<br />
It was decided that training in actual political action on the ground would be coordinated by Akalpita, and JP of Lok Satta would be invited as appropriate.<br />
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Other matters<br />
Other matters discussed included FTI’s monthly conference, review of this conference and suggestions to improve the next conference, and T-shirt sales.<br />
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Summation<br />
Sanjeev summed up the conference and noted that this had been an extremely successful conference. We are going out with renewed confidence and focus. In particular, actions arising from this conference should be implemented and followed up.<br />
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He compared the task with that of climbing Mt. Everest. There are three stages to climbing the mountain: drawing board stage, base camp, and then the climb. We are currently at the initial stage and are preparing for the base camp when all resources, plans and actions would be ready. This includes forming a significant understanding of the political marketplace and doing appropriate work to build demand.<br />
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Our job is NOT merely to find leaders and do nothing. We are working on many fronts:<br />
- finding the best talent in India (and converting others)<br />
- training them in leadership (including public speaking/ local language communication)<br />
- branding these leaders as HIGH QUALITY<br />
- occupying specific political spaces in the public mind through strategic actions<br />
- designing and testing the messages through intensive interaction with the people of Bharat<br />
- preparing detailed polices so we have policy alignment as a group of leaders<br />
- preparing all logistical (and internal communication) systems<br />
- fund raising<br />
- practice (dry run) of elections and electoral laws<br />
- building a massive support base of leaders in each constituency<br />
etc etc.<br />
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All this MUST come together first. Then the people of India will automatically welcome FTI leaders with open arms. Till the people of India want FTI leaders we know we have not done our homework properly. Homework has to be comprehensive, covering all bases.<br />
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Vote of thanks<br />
Participants gave a round of applause to the Mumbai team for organising the wonderful conference.Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-77257134618791889712012-03-23T09:19:00.000-07:002012-03-23T09:19:48.135-07:00The myth of the atheists exploded........<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">Unable to understand Vedanta and just because unqualified Braahmans/higher casts distorted the system these people revolt against the unfailing principles in the name of science. Just go through the comments..<br />
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<a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.in/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html" style="background-color: white; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 17pt;"><span style="color: #e7553c;">You Never Go Full Profound</span></a><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt;"><span class="post-author" style="background-color: white; line-height: 16.8pt;"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"; font-size: 6.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">POSTED BY</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="background-color: white; line-height: 16.8pt;"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"; font-size: 6.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"> </span></span><span class="fn" style="background-color: white; line-height: 16.8pt;"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: "Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"; font-size: 6.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;">LIJE</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt;"><span style="color: #999999; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px; text-transform: uppercase;"><br />
</span></span></div><h4 style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 12.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 12.0pt;"><a href="" name="comments"></a><span style="color: #3a3a3a; font-family: "Georgia","serif"; letter-spacing: 2.4pt; text-transform: uppercase;">37 COMMENTS:<o:p></o:p></span></h4><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c5887807014458272090"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia","serif"; font-size: 8.5pt;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Re: That is why you never go full profound. You just stay at profound and give others the chance to find profoundness in whatever way they like.<br />
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Is there any instance when others are denied to stay at profoundness in the history of the Sanatan Dharma (Hinduism) and AS A TRUE INTENT TO BE SO and so you saying as if such a chance is denied?<br />
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Others are preached/indoctrinated here so that ultimately they start questioning and learn it themselves. Brahman is that ultimate truth which is known by this method alone where contradictions are well settled. Belief is a system for those unable to reason out critically in Hinduism and do so for their welfare.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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You people only MISINTERPRET EVERYTHING EXACTLY FOR THIS REASON‼<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1330935388579#c5887807014458272090" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 5, 2012 1:46 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c954625804405028774"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Ramesh,<br />
<br />
I didn't mean that some people are consciously and deliberately stopping other people from attaining enlightenment. What I should have said is that some people don't recognize that there are many ways and forms of enlightenment (like The Double Rainbow) and insist that something like Brahman is the Ultimate Truth and there is only one way to get to it. That is what I consider as "going full profound"<br />
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Also, as I've said elsewhere on my blog, Enlightenment is a state of the brain. It has nothing to do with questioning something and learning something by ourselves. All that are rationalizations to ascribe meaning to the experience. That is why when you go full profound, you will deny meaning that others have found via ways which your rationalization doesn't agree with.<br />
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People like me haven't misinterpreted anything. I've always held that different people can find meaning and purpose to their lives in different ways and that to them is the ultimate realization of their lives. Show me one instance where I said anything contrary to that. It is only you who thinks there is one Ultimate Truth just because you believe so. I have never denied your experience but don't expect me or any freethinker to buy your rationalization of the experience.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1330997197591#c954625804405028774" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 6, 2012 6:56 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c3699698223153592508"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Here are immediate examples of your misrepresentations:<br />
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<br />
1. Re: some people don't recognize that there are many ways and forms of enlightenment (like The Double Rainbow) and insist that something like Brahman is the Ultimate Truth and there is only one way to get to it.<br />
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It is in Hinduism that recognises many ways of enlightenment. Here people become enlightened even by analysing a simple atom, dog, crow whatever that you can name and never unique. But there is only one kind of enlightenment i.e. Ultimate truth and whether his ultimate quest has been quenched or not will be the unique test of his enlightenment.<br />
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Lije look at one thing: In Hinduism enlightenment is not a condition of state of mind/brain or experience or anything else except a simple 'Knowledge' just like 2+2=4.. Just know/digest it and over. It is that knowledge after which the ultimate quest (root cause of all pain) of the human beings is quenched. It will never happen by science. Reason: Its own ‘means’. Brain/mind/experiences etc is purely scientific as you claim. People claiming as you state do it for entirely different reasons and are never Jnani as per original tenets of the Hinduism/shastras and only those people have ruined this Hinduism. So don’t compare them with Hinduism and lose your direction. You are arguing against Hinduism not not their people. People are mostly always with frauds for lack of sufficient reasoning.<br />
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2. Re: I've always held that different people can find meaning and purpose to their lives in different ways and that to them is the ultimate realization of their lives.<br />
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This is nothing but stating that either there is no such a thing like 'truth' or 'if it exists they are as many as the number of people realizing themselves'!<br />
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How absurd!! In your world of truth people will judge each other by different units (truths, each others own experiences etc) and fight will begin among themselves thinking that they are using the same units for every day life.<br />
If it is really so then definitely I have every right to rob others and live lavishly since that alone is what I understand from my present life! Are you agreeing? Can you ever refute me on critical reasoning? Why I should be moral? Don’t say that it is an innate nature of human beings or there is invisible hand (invisible means again blind belief one). What can be convenient to you can very well be inconvenient to me. Then why agree on common rules? Why play the fair game? Any justifications?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Please note that by enlightenment only one thing is meant: Truth unchangeable if at all it exists and has to be unique just as units of measurement like cm, inch etc otherwise only confusion and destruction of the world with our own hands. Rest assured!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331042966420#c3699698223153592508" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 6, 2012 7:39 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c977128367551212529"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Ramesh,<br />
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I think I see where you are coming from. Replace this sentence "It is only you who thinks there is one Ultimate Truth just because you believe so." with "It is only you who thinks your personal experience is The Ultimate Truth just because you believe so."<br />
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That and I've clearly defined what enlightenment is. I do not equate it with "T"ruth. There are fact propositions and then there are value propositions. You are mixing both.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331429369035#c977128367551212529" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 11, 2012 6:59 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c813958009151467326"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Dear Lije,<br />
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Re:"It is only you who thinks your personal experience is The Ultimate Truth just because you believe so."<br />
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Did you read my last but one comment? I repeat - In Hinduism enlightenment is not a condition of state of mind/brain or experience or anything else except a simple 'Knowledge' just like 2+2=4.. Just know/digest it and over. It is that knowledge after which the ultimate quest (root cause of all pain) of the human beings is quenched.......etc.<br />
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I am least interested in how you define the ‘enlightenment’; I am concerned only with the fact that you are imposing your definition on that of Sanatan Dharma. Generally, by enlightenment truth alone is sought. Let us say if E=mc2 becomes enlightenment if practically it is true. Such a sort of enlightenment isdn't experienced by man. However, it would be just like enlightenment if this equation proves practically correct and so it does. Now going by the definition (of Sanatan dharma and not the distorted yours one) By this argument E=mc2 can't be enlightenment because it is only partial expression of the 'theory of everything'. Enlightenment should mean the one by knowing which your ultimate quest is quenched forever.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Why are you people defining the things yourself and imposing it on Vedanta, Sanatan Dharma for which they never stand and yeh! they never opposed what you said in r/o science and its achievements. Sanatan Dhamra is making such a sort of Science only precise and Healthy. See my site.<br />
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What I find in your video (of enlightenment, your sort) is joy of marvellous beauty, the joy which gets decayed with the finding of other better scenes. A joy becomes enlightenment when it is permanent, once for all. And so it doesn't remain just a joy but mind, intellect etc gets permanently stable, fully quenched for having realized (like 1+1=2, or E=mc2) what everything is, since there remain no curiosity to look after or to solve as is science finding at present.<br />
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See if you could understand the sanatan dharma in the right perspective and particularly what I have bee arguing. Yes but it requires extraordinary effort and sincerity. Lifeless things like computer can even understand Science if it fed with proper data and definitions. You are human beings. You are expected to see beyond science but knowing full well the limitations of scientific method and however with total scientific temper and critical reasoning. Since it has not been there, there is every reason to call you people biased and interpreting very different things alien to Sanatan Dharma.<br />
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One complaint against you people- we state one thing about Vedanta and Sanatana Dharma and you argue quite other things having biased with the notion of scientific methods as unfailing and absolute one. Science gets corrected when due. But why expect santan dharma to be so which is ultimate. Problem is that you do not try what it says and mean fully ignoring (for lack of critical reasoning) that it NEVER contradicts your sort of science and above all refuse to understand it by offering YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION. Too much biased and insincere in approach!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331819073868#c813958009151467326" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 15, 2012 7:14 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c6030859283827053293"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Enlightenment isn't where you get a theory of everything. It is an experience in the brain and the rationalization that follows.<br />
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So it is not The Ultimate Whatever. If it was, Sanatana Dharmics would have thrown out the abominable varna dharma a long time back. And wouldn't have written sexist texts like Vichar Sagar. So go figure.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331827702654#c6030859283827053293" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 15, 2012 9:38 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c2592526405901616299"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Re: Enlightenment isn't where you get a theory of everything.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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That’s your definition of enlightenment. Umpteen number of times I have stated it. Who gave you the right to impose it on sanatan Dharam?<br />
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Re: It is an experience in the brain and the rationalization that follows.<br />
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Very very absurd!!! It is the joy, happiness and all that accompanies the ‘ultimate knowledge’ which is experienced and not the Brahman itself. That’s simply knowledge. It is said to be experienced in the sense that knowledge of that expels all that unquenched curiosity (and so cause of misery) that surrounds the universe and SO it gives the experience of eternal joy for having solved the mystery.<br />
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Re: So it is not The Ultimate Whatever. If it was, Sanatana Dharmics would have thrown out the abominable varna dharma a long time back..<br />
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Poor friend!! There has not been varna dharma in sanatan dharma in the sense you think. Just as you people are misinterpreting all the Itihasas so has been the fate with Varna Dharma. Do you agree with the qualifications to do certain things? If yes then so is this. It is not by birth it is by qualification to understand! Please understand. There have been many Pandits who have ruined such a Hinduism by misinterpreting the Shastras.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331831269822#c2592526405901616299" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 15, 2012 10:37 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c5239500723245924296"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">I'm not going split hairs on definitions of words. But I'll leave<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://edge.org/3rd_culture/rama08/rama08_index.html"><span style="color: #e7553c;">this</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>here:<br />
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<i>Now imagine these same circuits become hyperactive as sometimes happens when you have seizures originating in the temporal lobes (TLE or temporal lobe epilepsy). The result would be an intense heightening of the patient's sensory appreciation of the world and intense empathy for all beings to the extent of seeing no barriers between himself and the cosmos—the basis of religious and mystical experiences. (You lose all selfishness and become one with God.)<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></i><br />
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>>Do you agree with the qualifications to do certain things? If yes then so is this. It is not by birth it is by qualification to understand!<<<br />
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That's a lousy argument. Show me the evidence where all children, regardless of their station of birth were given the same training, and then based on how they take up to various subjects, they were assigned vocations.<br />
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I know you can't show me because The Ultimate Whatever is so Ultimate that it can't even comprehend as basic a fact as that qualifications are a function of the environment and instead believes in Ultimate silly things like innate<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gunas</i>. The Ultimate result is that Ultimately varna has no other option than to become birth based.<br />
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<a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Here's an example</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>of how a society does it the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>proper way</b>, without making any Ultimately lame excuses.<br />
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And that is precisely why Vedanta is only confounding talk and can never pay rent. It's Ultimate social implications are so Ultimate that one can Ultimately see the Ultimate depravity of the said Ultimate implications in Ultimate action.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331835562867#c5239500723245924296" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 15, 2012 11:49 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c2323709601401385037"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://indianatheists.com/author/arvindiyer/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Arvind Iyer</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">This recently published<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_humanity_s_stairway_to_self_transcendence.html"><span style="color: #e7553c;">TED talk by Jonathan Haidt</span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: #e7553c; text-decoration: none; text-underline: none;"> </span></span></a>enlists the many means through which people have experienced what might be called 'self-transcendence', of which very few are even remotely religious.<br />
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Also relevant maybe this<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/asmr/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">recently published article on the Neurologica blog</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>on the autonomous sensory meridian response (ASMR), which might offer clues as to why the unlikeliest of experiences maybe found compelling and even profound by us.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331862418552#c2323709601401385037" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 16, 2012 7:16 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c3737175651411438077"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Here is rapid rejoinder for want of time,<br />
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Re: Show me the evidence where all children, regardless of their station of birth were given the same training, and then based on how they take up to various subjects, they were assigned vocations.<br />
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Did you forget that that training and knowledge is imparted to the pupil depending on what he questions, what interest he develops what natural instincts are prominent in him and what ability he has to overcome the same after each stage of understanding and his ability to grasp.<br />
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Lije, all cannot be given the same training. Don't you see how many meanings this 'brahman' has? Are they all true? You think yours alone is correct and is absurd‼<br />
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To start with mango and apple needs to be treated separately. Human being is not NECESSARILY so! Walya koli was robber by birth something untouchable by birth. Did not he become Valmiki Rushi greater than the Brahmin? Shabari was also degraded by birth. Did not Rama eat her fruit tasted by her? Did not see could know what the brahmins fail? Ravan was Brahmin by birth, but wasn't he treated like Rakshas due to his gunas? Wasn't Hanuman a monkey by birth? Isn't the greatest of Brahmin worship him for getting the knowledge? I haven't studied scriptures and Itihasas otherwise I would have given you the fitting examples far better!<br />
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See MY comments on http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/11/why-cant-muslims-and-christians-enter-hindu-temples/<br />
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for better understanding of the Hindu concepts.<br />
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Do your have the answers? You can't except gross PERVERSIONS as abundantly available as above.<br />
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Enlightenment: Hundred times I have told upon it. refer earlier comments. What YOU state is YOUR VERSION and never that of SANATAN DHARMA. If YOU cannot understand why malign the other? Simply because you have the freedom of expression and that others can be influenced easily my friend? Either question logically or declare it is not your area and unqualified for the same! Why feel shame for this? Sorry if you are hurt but responsibility is yours since I am being compelled to repeat the same things again and again.<br />
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I appreciate your link http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/<br />
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My dear friend what I see is that link it is the inherent interest that is guided properly. Hindu varnashrama is no more different from that. When your sort of practice (above link) goes the transition of thousand of years as has been the case with sanatan dharma it resembles to that of Varna Shrama. It is the people who make it rigid and not the original hypothesis. Blame people who practise this sanatan dharma and not the very sanatan dharma. Learn the difference if you can<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331876822933#c3737175651411438077" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 16, 2012 11:17 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c8404115396365875056"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Re: And that is precisely why Vedanta is only confounding talk and can never pay rent. It's Ultimate social implications are so Ultimate that one can Ultimately see the Ultimate depravity of the said Ultimate implications in Ultimate action.<br />
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Quite Appreciated!That is why exactly every moment we need the Guru to interpret the things AS THEY ARE! It is the dearth of them which has ruined everything to this level in Hinduism.<br />
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You may agree that fruits of science (all the comforts like gun, bombs etc) should not get into the hands of fanatic like N Korea, Afghanishtan etc (Hinudu, Muslim, Christen including the athiests)since by Hindu term they are unqualified for the same and hence untouchable in that respect, sense and TO THAT EXTENT ALONE (availability of science etc). Is not it the duty of everybody to ensure it to THAT EXTENT ALONE? A Jnani (or rational one in scientific term) alone can decide who is fanatic here! Won't you support such a rational man?<br />
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Now the circumstances have changed. As per the Hindu laws Varnashram should get changed as per Desh and kal. (change is the law of nature- Bhagawat geeta). And this Change is always in consonance with the knowledge prevelant at a particular time and space. To this extent change should have occurred. However stupid man has revolted against the Jnana in the name of science thinking that it will ultimately reveal everything!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331880349270#c8404115396365875056" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 16, 2012 12:15 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c5173773916870921908"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">How can a student read when they haven't been taught to do so? How can a student ask questions on calculus when they haven't been taught the basics of mathematics? That is what primary education of today does. Teach the basics. Then based on the student's proclivity, they can take up specializations.<br />
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So, I ask again. Show me the evidence where<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>all</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>children were taught the basics. Don't quote scripture. I too can quote from Harry Potter and Lord of The Rings.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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And on the need of a guru,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://nirmukta.net/Thread-Spiritual-experiences-and-the-need-of-a-guru"><span style="color: #e7553c;">I've written it here</span></a>. Without bambozzling the population of the need of a guru, how else can one maintain the depraved ethics of Vedanta?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1331912346423#c5173773916870921908" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 16, 2012 9:09 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c5083586518455605422"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Dear Lije,<br />
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1. Re: Show me the evidence where all children were taught the basics.<br />
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Before you talk of the teaching, let you talk first of BASICS. For you reading, mathematics, primary education etc is BASIC. Will you please let me know to what extent these are assumed to be basic in Sanatan Dharma in view of transmission of knowledge primarily through Shruit (hearing) and Smriti (memory) etc and how much importance has been accorded to this your sort of BASICS there?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Dear friend, cessation of all pain (quenching of ultimate quest and other comforts of the sort of modern science being at lower level) by virtue of ‘ultimate principle’ i.e. ‘theory of everything’ alone was the goal, essence and content of the Sanatan Dharma. Keeping in view this alone the reading, interpretation etc was prohibited to other less qualified (Varnashram, women etc) and people of other faith. This did not mean that physically it was denied to them. It meant only that they did not have any authority to do so. However by qualification they did interpret the Shastras (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Shudra_Hindu_saints, http://agniveer.com/821/vedas-and-shudra/) there are many other outstanding rishis belonging to these shudras, I am least interested in such factual data.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Till now and forever Jnana is and will be treated as ‘open’ Secret of the universe. By the term ‘open’ everybody including all castes will be open to have an access to it unlike you sense (reading, mathematics, basic, primary education, basics etc). But by term ‘secret’ only qualified/eligible will be allowed to interpret it AS THEY ARE. Aren’t you people now can read all the shastras? But alas! Only to have it perverted grossly and mislead the community with both the Sanatan Dharma and Science!! It was exactly in this sense that they were forbidden and not in technical sense (reading, mathematics, basic, primary education, basics etc) as you state. However technically things happened as you state subsequently because of the cross breed of Brahman entered this community which were no more different from your community (in respect of reason and logic please and not in respect caste by birth note). So reason, if any, should be attributed to those and not the Sanatan Dharma as I have stated so many times before in this thread.<br />
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2. Re: Don't quote scripture. I too can quote from Harry Potter and Lord of The Rings.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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How foolish! All you people write about castism, enlightenment, Jnana, Sanatan Dharma, Vedanta, Ramayan, Mahabharat, Hinduism, and there practical implications on human community.....etc only by quoting from those sources and ask me not to quote from scripture (unlike we quote from Harry potter etc).<br />
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Dear, all our thinking bears to these scripture unlike the Harry Potter etc. What the scripture is to us so is not the Harry Potter to science but it is the science to Harry Potter so. Note the difference if only you can understand. Therefore we can authoritatively state from Scriputes but you can’t from Harry Potter. Harry Potter is imagination to science, scripture is not so to us (it is so for you thing is different).<br />
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Continued.......<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332009996505#c5083586518455605422" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 18, 2012 12:16 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c6138702424189890968"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">.....From previous<br />
3. Re: And on the need of a guru, I've written it here<br />
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That’s what you think and not what Sanatan Dharma is! Yours only perverted for reasons so well illustrated here and there.<br />
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4. Re: Without bambozzling the population of the need of a guru, how else can one maintain the depraved ethics of Vedanta?<br />
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One cannot maintain the Vedanta except either with the help of Guru (who will initiate the follower to a level suitable to his capacity and not necessarily to the Brahman) or the one himself who knows and is put to rest ultimately on his own with the check and balances (assimilating the contradictions so abundantly prevalent in Vedas, Shastra etc) in the Vedanta. Only these two methods and no other. No Guru in Sanatan Dharma has stated me what I know of it today (they also pervert it) I myself have got satisfied with the texts on my own with like Vichar sagar. In Sanatan Dharma there is no difference between Guru and the Brahman. Test for such a Guru is: He stands quenched ultimately in every respect. Of course ‘theory of everything’ will be one of the corollaries of having his quest satisfied which science won’t be inventing for millenniums to come!<br />
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So, will you avoid grossly perverting the interpretations and be sincere in approach truly critical in reasoning and logic just to do the justice to science as reasoned out above?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332010195500#c6138702424189890968" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 18, 2012 12:19 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c6966754500077554148"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">You very conveniently side stepped the main issue – that Varna Dharma is birth based, by rambling on The Ultimate Whatever. So to bring it on track, I ask again – show me the evidence were, all children in were taught the basics. I only mentioned current school subjects as an example. Correcting for time, the basics would be something like clean your own bathroom, pickup your own shit, martial skills, memorizing stuff, math, astrology etc... Then based on how a student fares (or cannot fare), they can be assigned a Varna. Did that happen in the glorious reign of The Ultimate Whatever? No.<br />
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You put a person in the right environment, chances are good that they will develop the right skills. But The Ultimate Whatever is ignorant of that fact because it believes in nonsense like<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>karma</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>and<i>gunas</i>. Given the sycophancy showered at The Ultimate Whatever, one should expect decent morals from it.<br />
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And you perfectly illustrated the need for a guru. It is no different than what I'm saying. To appreciate only a certain kind of music, put it on a pedestal, and use the prefix “Ultimate” copiously, you definitely need to believe in the need of a guru and that guru should be in the perfect position to deliver. He should be able to show you the beauty of that music, ignoring all other forms of music.<br />
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Now for some pointless hair splitting, totally unrelated to the main point which you have side stepped – the depraved morals of The Ultimate Whatever.<br />
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There are different ways you could use scripture – one is to identify moral premises, which doesn't need the scriptures to be entirely factual. What is needed is that a set of people live by those moral premises. So if there are people who live by the morals espoused in Harry Potter, I will use Harry Potter literature to analyze the premises.<br />
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But if you tell me that there are flying broomsticks, I will laugh it off. It is an extraordinary claim and needs extraordinary evidence. Scriptures are full of such extraordinary claims.<br />
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To split the hair even more finely, I can't use Hogwarts as evidence of how schools are run in the real world. For that, I need to collect evidence from the real world – like see how schools are run in the real London. Not the fictional one.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332016658965#c6966754500077554148" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 18, 2012 2:07 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c8531734973755788813"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">I'll make it even more explicit - the very idea of Varna Dharma is fundamentally flawed. Given its premises, there is no situation in which it could not have become birth based.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Till date, The Ultimate Whatever is oblivious to that fact and keeps pretending that it is not birth based and turns to fiction to cite evidence.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332017388159#c8531734973755788813" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 18, 2012 2:19 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c7219047338359310653"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Re: You very conveniently side stepped the main issue – that Varna Dharma is birth based, by rambling on The Ultimate Whatever. So to bring it on track, I ask again – show me the evidence were, all children in were taught the basics. I only mentioned current school subjects as an example. Correcting for time, the basics would be something like clean your own bathroom, pickup your own shit, martial skills, memorizing stuff, math, astrology etc...<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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I am afraid you will ever SEE the exact answers given to you! Here I go once again.<br />
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Let you be sure and intact about the fact that everything in Sanatan Dharm comes from only one thing ‘ultimate principle’ (consisting of Brahman and Maya)then may be you talk about basics, caste, women, superstitions, belief, eligibility, all super feats performed in purnas, ramayaan etc, science whatever the hell it may be in the universe. Let you be firm that this is so from our side.<br />
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Now re: clean your own bathroom, pickup your own shit etc. Abraham Lincon was by cast cobbler by birth as per my knowledge (sorry if otherwise). So do you expect him to mend his own shoes even when he became President of USA? He may do so on his own as a hobby or for his own reasons but note that he has every right to engage THE OTHER, specialists to this task because of HIS PRIORITY OF PRESIDENTIAL TASK. So my dear friend a true Brahman (or anybody) never denies to pick of his shit etc just because his priorities are different and not because he is ordained not to do so by this ultimate principle. Now re: martial skills, memorizing stuff, math, astrology etc. These sort of questions I have already answered and here I copy and paste: “…….Keeping in view this alone the reading, interpretation etc was prohibited to other less qualified (Varnashram, women etc) and people of other faith. THIS DID NOT MEAN THAT PHYSICALLY IT WAS DENIED TO THEM. IT MEANT ONLY THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY AUTHORITY TO DO SO. HOWEVER BY QUALIFICATION THEY DID INTERPRET THE SHASTRAS (E.G. HTTP://EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG/WIKI/LIST_OF_SHUDRA_HINDU_SAINTS, HTTP://AGNIVEER.COM/821/VEDAS-AND-SHUDRA/) THERE ARE MANY OTHER OUTSTANDING RISHIS BELONGING TO THESE SHUDRAS, I AM LEAST INTERESTED IN SUCH FACTUAL DATA”.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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In above reference please note that it may be martial skill, memorising stuff, maths, astrology, ayurveda, yoga whatever it may be are INTEGRAL PART OF ‘JNANA’ and accordingly alone it is imparted as above. You neglect this aspect and hence DIFFERENTIATING them from the JNANA.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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continued........<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332134311830#c7219047338359310653" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 10:48 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c5918437641258026611"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">......from previous.<br />
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re: You put a person in the right environment, chances are good that they will develop the right skills. But The Ultimate Whatever is ignorant of that fact because it believes in nonsense like karma and gunas. Given the sycophancy showered at The Ultimate Whatever, one should expect decent morals from it.<br />
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There isn’t any thing like RIGHT environment and BAD environment. However the circumstances it may be, the INDIVIDUAL is always free and independent (core of Hindu philosophy). What you talk of is of the Vyavahara-ground activities. There aren’t strict rules which govern them. I repeat “</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Mangal, serif;">परिवर्तनहि</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Mangal, serif;">सन्सार</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Mangal, serif;">का</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Mangal, serif;">नियम</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"> </span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Mangal, serif;">है</span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">/”- Bhagawat Geeta.</span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"> </span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><br />
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All are not born equal in r/o of capacity to understand, do a thing, exhibit some talent etc. Mango seed IS MOST LIKELY to give rise to the mango tree and not that of Apple. Because it may happen that by hybridization, treatment and all that stuff it may be made to give a tree of Apple but NEVER AS A RULE. This statement of mine will be understood by those who know the POWER of science. Exactly so is the case with the system of education of Santan Dharma. Since a Skill (picking up shit, cleaning, martial acts etc) may just go perverted that the practical knowledge of such a skill is restricted to the definite class of people and NEVER AS A RULE. A Brahman student should be denied the knowledge of Vedas, Martial act etc if tendency is against the TRUE KNOWLEDGE. Similarly a Shudra by dint of his Knowledge (Which need NEVER come from Vedas, Upnishads etc but may easily come from few devotional songs addressed to Rakshasas, by acts of being Prostitute, by killing of innocents, doing adharmic acts, by picking shits etc) equals the Brahman not to talk of getting skilled at martial acts etc and which has been your main ‘issue’. Where come the question of denying it.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Karma and Gunas go on losing their rigidity as one becomes more and more sharp in reason, logic and the same becomes nil the moment he realizes the TRUTH. Karma, Gunas, Rebirth, Heaven, Patal etc hold their validity to the extent of his logic and ability to reason. If you understand Geeta, Vichar Sagar (not just read it with biased and perverted intellect) you may understand it and may also come to know that Vichar Sagar in fact glorifies sex as in modern times and MUCH MORE the moment you UNDERSTAND IT in 7th chapter. Given the current level of your sincerity, reasoning ability you are not allowed to read those. Either you should find ‘theory of everything’ using the scientific method or search the Guru to quench your quest till then you are neither here nor there and still think you are correct‼! (science is always approximation till it finds ToE, the moment it happens, ToE will coincide with ‘ultimate principle, if not nobody will question you either. Therefore till that (infinite time?) you have to hold back.)<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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If you think all this sidetracking, irrelevant then **Please do one thing: Show me the evidence where all children were NOT taught the basics.** and I will try the other way. Lets us other logic. I do not know the evidence where all children were not taught the basics. How about this, dear Lije? It may amply prove whether it is the perverted knowledge or the sincerity which is guiding you!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332134356722#c5918437641258026611" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 10:49 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c5254895272927969305"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">I'm judging The Ultimate Whatever by what kind of a society it resulted in – which is – a few people found a way to perpetuate power by installing a birth based system of vocations. Even though you have dishonestly shifted the burden of proof, here's the evidence you ask for: there is no mention anywhere in ancient Indian history of all children in a village being taught the same basic skills. Teaching was mostly birth based. Some texts of fiction mention sporadic instances of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Varna</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>hopping. That is all.<br />
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Regarding who is qualified to learn what, I have a much better understanding of human biology than you do. (I'm not boasting. Just stating a fact). So your analogy of mangoes and apples is untenable. Humans share a common biology and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.pnas.org/content/107/10/4499.full?sid=c0610fa2-e4f9-47a4-82b9-aa4ff2a5321d"><span style="color: #e7553c;">there are some consequences because of that</span></a>. One has to wonder why The Ultimate Whatever is ignorant of such science.<br />
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In every comment you type, you keep exemplifying the depraved morals of The Ultimate Whatever. I posses a wide range of skills – from cleaning to mending to science to engineering to philosophy and so on. Those skills aren't mutually exclusive. That in essence sums up the moral bankruptcy of The Ultimate Whatever. The very idea that specialization in something precludes some other things is the signature rotten stench of casteism.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332139279628#c5254895272927969305" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 12:11 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c3921093075052248789"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090922/full/news.2009.935.html"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Some more evidence</span></a>:<br />
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<i>Indian populations, although currently huge in number, were also founded by relatively small bands of individuals, the study suggests. Overall, the picture that emerges is of ancient genetic mixture, says Reich, followed by fragmentation into small, isolated ethnic groups, which were then kept distinct for thousands of years because of limited intermarriage — a practice also known as endogamy.<br />
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This genetic evidence refutes the claim that the Indian caste structure was a modern invention of British colonialism, the authors say. "This idea that caste is thousands of years old is a big deal," says Nicole Boivin, an archaeologist who studies South Asian prehistory at the University of Oxford, UK. "To say that endogamy goes back so far, and that genetics shows it, is going to be controversial to many anthropologists." Boivin fears that the study might be 'spun' by politicians seeking to maintain caste structures in India, and she calls on social scientists and geneticists to collaborate on such "highly politicized" issues.</i><br />
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Which exposes the intellectual bankruptcy of the likes of Agniveer.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332141364783#c3921093075052248789" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 12:46 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c6821209401935830991"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">1. Re: I'm judging The Ultimate Whatever by what kind of a society it resulted in – which is – a few people found a way to perpetuate power by installing a birth based system of vocations.<br />
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Just because E=mc2 ULTIMATELY resulted in destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima blaming the Einstein or E=mc2 can only be attributed to you people!<br />
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Dear it is the people who should be blamed and it is exactly for them that most of the rules like caste (which is specific to qualification) are framed so that people like those who played havoc like in Japan are barred from the knowledge of E=mc2. (Request use the relevant sense to understand this one if possible)<br />
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2. Re: Even though you have dishonestly shifted the burden of proof, here's the evidence you ask for: there is no mention anywhere in ancient Indian history of all children in a village being taught the same basic skills<br />
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It is you who are blaming against Ultimate principle. It is just natural that burden is yours .Don’t you know the simple law in real life which the courts all over the world follow‼‼‼ Didn’t you prove your flawed logic?<br />
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3. Re: Regarding who is qualified to learn what, I have a much better understanding of human biology than you do. (I'm not boasting. Just stating a fact).<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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The ultimate principle is nothing except a fact. Who are you (people) to know the fact pending the theory of everything. Is there anybody to state who is correct between us? Impossible [That is why (one of the reason) the ultimate principle].<br />
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4. Re: So your analogy of mangoes and apples is untenable. Humans share a common biology and there are some consequences because of that.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Dear Lije, there are still finer elements which constitute the biology (like chemical reactions, molecules, atoms- in fact there isn’t anything like biology except maths, physics, chemistry) which in fact are common between mangoes and apples. That is why a stage may definitely come when mango seed will give apples in future. And this is the consequence of those common things! So do you agree that I know better biology than you?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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5. Re: One has to wonder why The Ultimate Whatever is ignorant of such science.<br />
Still any doubt who is ignorant of the science in view of above FACTS as argued?<br />
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....continued.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332158377669#c6821209401935830991" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 5:29 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c1984967233290411850"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">....from previous<br />
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6. Re: I posses a wide range of skills – from cleaning to mending to science to engineering to philosophy and so on.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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What is the wonder then? So am I. So were many Brahmans, kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras (you may cite contrary examples if any).<br />
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7. Re: That in essence sums up the moral bankruptcy of The Ultimate Whatever.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Still any doubt as to the moral bankruptcy of you people in view of last comment?<br />
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8. Re: The very idea that specialization in something precludes some other things is the signature rotten stench of casteism.<br />
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Which precise statement did you draw the above inference? Or just the stench of your rotten reasoning, logic?<br />
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9. Re: ….This genetic evidence refutes the claim that the Indian caste structure was a modern invention of British colonialism,…..<br />
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Who denied that castism is not a part of Sanatan Dharma? Issue has been whether it was birth based or Patrata (eligibility) based! Why jump from this to that and blame others for similar things?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Will you be ever logical and reasonable while arguing? Still do you find yourself sincere enough?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332158463771#c1984967233290411850" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 5:31 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c7683934802158791706"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Science is not an ethical system. Something like secular humanism is. More importantly science doesn't use the prefix "Ultimate". Being defeasible is at its core.<br />
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You again conviniently side stepped the evidence I gave you. Firstly, you don't have any evidence other than from fiction to say that Varna is not birth based. When I did show you the evidence, you keep making lame excuses. Communism is perfect on paper. It leads to the perfect society. But that is not how it should be judged. You look at how it fared in the real world.<br />
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Did you even read the PNAS paper I linked to?<br />
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What kind of an inane argument is that mango seeds can give apples in the future? Of course, given knowledge is probabilistic, it is possible that mangoes become apples. But it takes a special kind of daftness to latch onto very small probabilities and flaunt it as being extremely probable.<br />
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Even then, we humans are already here. In the present. It takes an even more special kind of daftness to ignore that and fantasize about hypotethicals.<br />
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Did you even read the Agniveer nonsense you linked to? The Nature news article I linked to is in direct contradiction to it.<br />
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Finally,<br />
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<i>Is there anybody to state who is correct between us?</i><br />
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Yes. When it comes to science, that is easy. You do an experiment. If you say you can levitate, I'll simply ask you to jump off a building. That settles who is correct and who is not.<br />
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When it comes to subjective experiences, there is no easy way other than to take what one says on face value. That is why Harry Potter is real. That is also why Vedanta is just gobbly-gook (not because it is inherently nonsensical. But because of its evangelists and preachers who have no way of showing x other than to say x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x)<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332168581863#c7683934802158791706" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 8:19 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c6364319736560947319"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">1. Re: Science is not an ethical system. Something like secular humanism is. More importantly science doesn't use the prefix "Ultimate". Being defeasible is at its core.<br />
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That’s you people’s definition of science. The vedantic science includes all that what you call plus ethics, ultimate, castism, Brahman and all stuff etc they are all scientific. That’s why hundred times I have told that Vedata never crosses modern science but includes all that which science may know after theory of everything. Do you remember? Why impose your one on us? We aren’t contradicting your science!<br />
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2. re: You again conviniently side stepped the evidence I gave you..........<br />
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I repeat your evidence: there is no mention anywhere in ancient Indian history of all children in a village being taught the same basic skills. Teaching was mostly birth based. Some texts of fiction mention sporadic instances of Varna hopping. That is all.<br />
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Evidently it is lame evidence as vividly cleared earlier. You haven’t refuted them. Instead your real evidence is this: “Communism is perfect on paper. It leads to the perfect society. But that is not how it should be judged. You look at how it fared in the real world.” And I answered it like this: Just because E=mc2 ULTIMATELY resulted in destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima blaming the Einstein or E=mc2 can only be attributed to you people! Did you ignore it purposely? There is a link between communism on paper and its faring in real world, link being that of Human beings. If this human being is not governed properly nothing is sufficient for him. Hindu rules provide for that exactly.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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3. re: What kind of an inane argument is that mango seeds can give apples in the future? Of course, given knowledge is probabilistic, it is possible that mangoes become apples. But it takes a special kind of daftness to latch onto very small probabilities and flaunt it as being extremely probable.<br />
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Can you re-read what I stated? I repeat I stated: “Mango seed IS MOST LIKELY to give rise to the mango tree and not that of Apple. Because it may happen that by hybridization, treatment and all that stuff it may be made to give a tree of Apple but NEVER AS A RULE.” Do you know about metal transmutation? It is exactly similar to that!! Isn’t that 100% sure. No probability!! Simple science but may take far more scientific development. Just lack of understanding as to what I say. Point was that we have to effect such transmutation/mango to apple etc whereas among human beings it can happen on their own with or without good environment! See if you could get the point after my repeated attempts!!<br />
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Isn’t your link PNAS paper irrelevant/misplaced one in the above context?<br />
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My agniveer link was limited to as to what the Vedas are to tell about Shudras. More than this I am not interested in that at present here.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332177342432#c6364319736560947319" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 10:45 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c3099085559687856184"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">...from previous<br />
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4. re: Is there anybody to state who is correct between us? Yes. When it comes to science, that is easy. You do an experiment. If you say you can levitate, I'll simply ask you to jump off a building. That settles who is correct and who is not.<br />
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My dear friend I am talking about we, the human beings and what we see (say biology as per original reference). In other words I am talking about matter born consciousness (we human beings, the one who judges) and the matter (building, levitating, universe and all that). Who is correct? Either matter born consciousness or the matter itself? Who will judge? Isn’t the matter itself since it is that which is there ultimately? WHO established the reality of matter after all (and all that constituting the scientific method)? What a nonsense and foolishness!! I talk one thing you take it different!! Is it the reasoning, logic of you people? Horrible!!<br />
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5. re: When it comes to subjective experiences, there is no easy way other than to take what one says on face value. That is why Harry Potter is real.<br />
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So is the dream real while we are in the dream! But there is a state called waking which declares that dream is illusion. Does the science (universe) know the state from where it come? How etc. Either wait for theory of everything or be in illusion like dream! Am I correct? Vedanta states that there is hardly any difference between the reality of the Harry Potter and the relative real universe!! Know it using the ultimate principle, if you can’t approach the Guru appropriate.<br />
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6. Re: That is also why Vedanta is just gobbly-gook (not because it is inherently nonsensical. But because of its evangelists and preachers who have no way of showing x other than to say x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x because x is x)<br />
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We never say x is x because x is x. Instead we say x is x because there isn’t, in fact, anything like x. Still we call it x till such a time when we see (realize, enlighten) that there is not anymore x including the one who asks it except the illusion! It is exactly for this reason that it is the science which suffers from infinite regress and never the Vedanta though it appears it so because of the perverted logic of you people. Science will cease from suffering this problem of infinite regress till ‘theory of everything’ is found. After that it will be same as that of Vedanta.<br />
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This last point of comment should convincingly prove the rot, perverted logic/reason, gross bias within you people.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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If not then at present my transmutation technology (say reason, logic) to change you people from say mango (contrary to ultimate principle) to apple (pro ultimate principle) will be insufficient till such a moment we find ‘theory of everything’. Till that period you will be uqualified/ineligible and hence of the caste of like shudras confined to the task of research/technology and will be barred from APPLYING the same to the HUMAN SOCIETY else you will cause the havoc like that of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I am just seeking the political system which will ensure it. Help the cause for betterment and survival of all!!!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332177832011#c3099085559687856184" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 10:53 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c6923327023396132646"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Let's remember that it is the depraved ethics of The Ultimate Whatever that is under the spotlight. You indulged in what-aboutery by citing e=mc2. But as I said, science is not an ethical system. So any argument along those lines is a strawman.<br />
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So shining the light back on, you earlier said "the INDIVIDUAL is always free and independent (core of Hindu philosophy).". Had you<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>really read</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>the paper I linked to, you would have seen why it is so very relevant - relevant to the extent that it entirely rubbishes the core of Hindu philosophy. If you think the paper is too technical to read, I'll try to find a simpler source.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332180589212#c6923327023396132646" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 19, 2012 11:39 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c5223665841314234140"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">1. Re: Let's remember that it is the depraved ethics of The Ultimate Whatever that is under the spotlight.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Let me correct it as: It is not the depraved ethics of the Ultimate Whatever that is under the spotlight but instead it the logic and scientific reasoning which decides (proves or disproves) as to the depraved OR OTHERWISE ethics of the ultimate whatever which is under the spotlight.<br />
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SO I THINK THIS SHOULD PROVE THE STRAWMAN ARGUMENT OF YOURS!!<br />
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2. Re: Had you really read the paper I linked to, you would have seen why it is so very relevant - relevant to the extent that it entirely rubbishes the core of Hindu philosophy<br />
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Doesn’t "the INDIVIDUAL is always free and independent (core of Hindu philosophy)" allows you to remain what you are and what I am? Do you mean we are same in our approach to life, universe? Never. That is what core of Hindu philosophy is! I never meant that molecules and laws governing the chemical reactions occurring in brain etc are different from person to person as you seem to understand. If your linked paper still mean different why not you put its summary in a paragraph of few lines so that I can understand you better and see how it was relevant?<br />
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3. Yes, you have left a good numbers of questions unanswered which will simply explode the myth of you people’s ethics! Please use to think before you write a comment on Ramayana, Mahabharat, Puranas, Vedas and all that matters for the sake sanctity of reason and logic which runs common to both of us.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332261000688#c5223665841314234140" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 20, 2012 10:00 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c3520977688718263456"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">I see you still haven't read that paper. It probably takes the same amount of time to read it as it takes you to repeatedly whine about logic and reason.<br />
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The nonsense of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Karma</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Gunas</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>lies not in the fact that humans are indeed different from each other (in some aspects), but in the fact that they completely ignore the effects of environment and magically expect a person to rise against them (that should do in way of the gist of that paper). They then use that excuse to perpetuate a system of birth based oppression. Which in effect is what The Ultimate Whatever is Ultimately capable of - camoflaging depraved ethics by profuse use of the prefix "Ultimate".<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332262575113#c3520977688718263456" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 20, 2012 10:26 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c7508397981316236867"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Thanks for providing the essence of the linked paper. I appreciate this observation and do sympathises with it, I did become emotional and got touched, it hurt me badly as I read it explicitly since that has what happened in Hinduism and is exactly the reason why we find the criticisers like you and nirmukta.<br />
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There are three elements:<br />
1. Ignorance of the effects of environment<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
2. magically expecting a person to rise against them<br />
3. use the excuse to perpetuate a system of birth based oppression<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
<br />
I have clarified each them as follows respectively<br />
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1. “Ignorance of effects of environment”- In fact the scientific universe is the great environment. Here the whole of Hindu scriptures (starting with Vedas, Upnishadas, Puranas, ramayaan, mahabharat ....etc) is the Hindu version of this environment called the ultimate one. Do remember that it is simply one version of the probable 10^500 (However in vedantic view ABSOLUTELY infinite numbers) versions that latest scientific research shows (Vadhavan blog).<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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In view of this it is wrong to argue that Sanatan dharma ignores the effects of the environment. Hinduism accepts the responsibility of creating the environment (not good or bad) called MAYA.<br />
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2. “magically expecting a person to rise against them”. Wrong. Please note that only HUMAN BEINGS are expected to rise against them since it is the only species that QUESTIONS AND POSSES THE QUALITY CALLED QUEST. The moment they (shudra or anybody lower than them) raise a question that’s a beginning of their rise against the environment. AND THIS ALONE IS THE PURPOSE OF THE ENVIRONMENT AND TILL THIS HAPPENS THERE IS A THING LIKE GUNAS AND KARMAS. Refer: Vichar Sagar for this.<br />
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3. “use the excuse to perpetuate a system of birth based oppression”. I answered it like this: Just because E=mc2 ULTIMATELY resulted in destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima blaming the Einstein or E=mc2 can only be attributed to you people!<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Dear let us assimilate the fact that it were the unqualified Shudras (though Brahmans by birth) which used this knowledge of E=mc2 (say ultimate principle) for destruction of Japan (perpetuation of a system of birth based oppression). So let us blame these politicians (braahmans by birth not by qualification) who got hold of the knowledge (though ultimately imaginary one) using which they bombed the innocents. My purpose lies in rooting them out and re-establishing the knowledge as it is!<br />
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So dear it is not the ultimate which is responsible but the middlemen who twists the things. Just because you received the empty parcel you need not blame the sender. Confirm if postman had played the mischief!<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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That is why GURU was placed on par with the Brahman. It were the ill Gurus who played the mischief—ref: Bhagawat Puran.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332268387585#c7508397981316236867" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 21, 2012 12:03 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c8659713895086992652"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">The environment</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"> </span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">- A child born into a family of manual scavengers. The family isn't allowed in some parts of the village as they are "impure".<br />
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<b>The magical expectation</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>- The child should be able to learn complex subjects on his/her own. He/she should have the innate<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>karma</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>given<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gunas</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>for that. (By complex subjects I mean something like arithmetic/algebra which is required for something like the post of a tax administrator. No need to split hairs on this).<br />
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<b>The excuse</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>- "The fact that a child is born in such a low family is evidence that he/she has accumilated bad karma from the past life. If the cosmic laws will, then the child will magically acquire knowledge of complex subjects and will hop Varnas. But we will not do a single thing, a single thing to teach the child anything.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Gunas</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>decide what a person is capable of. Since the child has no knowledge of math, it is evidence that he/she lacks the required<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gunas</i>."<br />
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I don't care how good a system is on paper or what its apologists think how great the system is. Talk is cheap. Talk is worthless when it can't walk the talk. Statements like "Good for all", "Justice for all" are cheap talk. Where is the implementation?<br />
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An ethical system like secular humanism doesn't claim to the perfect system or use superlative adjectives. It accepts that it can go wrong and since no superlative adjectives are used, there are few ego issues in clingling on to outdated dogma. I've linked to how one such system fared in Finland. The Ultimate Whatever has been in existence for thousands of years. So, where's the path with the footprints of the talk?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332270579952#c8659713895086992652" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 21, 2012 12:39 AM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c52417111441089784"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Dear Lije,<br />
<br />
It appears that you converted the issue of ‘PRINCIPLE/THEORY of Vedantic prudence’ into the ‘ACTUAL PRACTICE of Vedantic prudence’. Needless to say that I entirely agree with you on what has been actually observed and so has been the case with the hundreds of Sanatan saints throughout the 2nd millennia like Jnaneshwar, Tukaram, Namadev, Ramadas, Basaveshwar etc who are still rectifying the system ……<br />
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However here I think I am arguing about the very ‘PRINCIPLE/THEORY of Vedantic prudence’ and not the actual practice by agreeing the practice is in contravention to the original. And entirely DISAGREE that actual practice can anymore be attributed to the ‘original theory’ and illustrated the same with remarks like “Dear let us assimilate the fact that it were the unqualified Shudras (though Brahmans by birth) which used this knowledge of E=mc2 (say ultimate principle) for destruction of Japan (perpetuation of a system of birth based oppression). So let us blame these politicians (braahmans by birth not by qualification) who got hold of the knowledge (though ultimately imaginary one) using which they bombed the innocents. My purpose lies in rooting them out and re-establishing the knowledge as it is!”<br />
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Vedantic science comprises of all including material science, ethics and all that unknown.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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To start with Hindu system of school education was something on the lines of that of Finland (as proved by the Vedantic discussions etc)however during the course of time it turned into what we witness it today and so is likely to be with the Finland system unless and until every moment RIGHT TEACHER (GURU) ensures the logic and reason behind such an education so that desired effect doesn’t suffer. I entirely agree that Hinduism failed to sustain the continuous chain of such enlightened (for this unique understanding) Teachers.<br />
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And hence the need of such Jnanies (teachers) who will cleanse the system so that probable disaster in the form of ultimate science (I call it ultimate because that alone will be thought of as true in modern times and not because it not falsifiable) since definitely there are the persons in the present world who are unqualified or wield the power either in the name of religion or otherwise.<br />
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So before proceeding further help me confirm whether you are arguing about the ‘ultimate principle’ or ‘its actual practice’ or ‘correcting the system’! I originally deal only with the ‘ultimate principle’. OR still adamant saying that it is the consequence which decides the truth of principle (like attributing shooting a man with gun to the invention of gun by the science or attributing the Nagasaki disaster to the development of atom bomb by the science)? OR else prove these examples are irrelevant and misplaced.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332424059038#c52417111441089784" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 22, 2012 7:17 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c7901451122277546126"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">I have already shown that the principle itself is wrong. You weren't even willing to read that argument (the PNAS paper). There is no such thing as free-will, where free-will is defined as - given the exact same situation, including your enivironment, you cannot chose to act differently. The Ultimate Whatever believes in such a free will in the name of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gunas</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>karma</i>.<br />
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And that is precisly why there never could have been a situation like that in Finland. That system believes that basic education is a fundamental right. Had it believed in<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>gunas</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>karma</i>, there would be no basis for that fundamental right. The right exists because it believes that<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>equality means equal opportunity</b>. The key words are<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>"equal opportunity"</b>.<br />
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An individual is<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>never free</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>from the environment. That is why The Ultimate Whatever is incapable of understanding "equal opportunity". That is why it is the Ultimate failure in principle, and in practice.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332432529102#c7901451122277546126" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 22, 2012 9:38 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c4700451247928695428"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Re: The Ultimate Whatever believes in such a free will in the name of gunas and karma.<br />
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So do you mean that for Ultimate principle ‘gunas and karma’ are basic to the ‘free will’? See also if you could explain what WE (not PNAS) mean by free will. Please confirm this and my next comment will follow. Will you for the sake of sincerity of your arguments?<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Also see if it is possible for you to keep the same goal post either of principle or of practice!<br />
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Waiting...<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332436582535#c4700451247928695428" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 22, 2012 10:46 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c8790501632177766154"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">I don't care about what<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>you</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>mean by free-will. I have already defined what<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>I</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>mean by it. To simplify it, free-will ignores that we are fully caused beings and as such does not take the environment into consideration.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Gunas</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>and<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>karma</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>do the same mistake.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Arguing on definitions is pointless hair-splitting. Just substitute the word with its meaning. I've already given you plenty by way of meaning.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332437174560#c8790501632177766154" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 22, 2012 10:56 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c5226278336119783031"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Thanks Lije,<br />
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Re: To simplify it, free-will ignores that we are fully caused beings and as such does not take the environment into consideration. Gunas and karma do the same mistake. This much information is quite sufficient for me.<br />
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In fact in the ultimate principle except Brahman (absolute truth) everything is environment called Maya-relative truth (Ma meaning no +Ya mening this whole universe-like dream or Harry potter). Thus we-(whole universe) as per ultimate principle are never a caused one[ just as no cause can be attributed to the events in dream/harry potter though IT APPEARS TO BE SO] and still we find dream/Harry potter to be real SO LONG WE ARE sleeping/in a state of imagination since there is a state called waking (for dream) and relative truth (for Harry potter) to which when compared we can know what the truth is. But there isn’t a state in the day to day life of human beings (except Vedantic parmarthic) in relation to which waking can be felt like a dream. That is why this Maya is also called to be Mithya. Brahman cause nothing not even Maya. Both never contradict but complement (this is ultimate principle).<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br />
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Where does the ultimate principle espouses the cause of free will? Does it differ from gunas and karma etc if any? Never! There are more than one theories of creation of universe in Vedas. There is host of dharmic karmkand, Gunas, Karma, past life, rebirth, paap-punya, heaven, hell etc are all created (not as truths) and correspond to the different states, stages of the human beings in the present life itself and are DESIGINED SO THAT ULTIMATELY IT HELPS HIM TO GET RID OF THE GRIEF, PAIN FROM WHICH HE HAS BEEIN SUFFERING. All this process being complicated and skilfully dealt at, interpreted by the qualified Guru (teachers) only.<br />
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There isn’t any arrangement in scientific world which can hold a man ACCOUNTABLE (theory of invisible hand being highly insufficient) as a result of which worldly prosperity, running behind quest which will always be unquenched (illusion) can only be the goal of human beings and hence cause of misery, destruction in the end.<br />
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If you find anything contrary in the ultimate principle please quote it.<br />
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So are you yourself propagating your own version of ‘ultimate whatever’ and proving it nonsense you yourself again? Have you ever tried to know the most basic concept of Maya? If not interested with what authority you people argue against Sanatan Dharma in the absence theory of everything? Which yardstick do you use to establish the absolute reality of scientific methods/science? If it is relative how would you differentiate it from Vedantic Maya? There is Brahman which accounts for the infinite regress of the maya what is there to account for your sort of relative universe-scientific methods?<br />
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In the absence of satisfactory answers to all the above why don’t you think you are all espousing the wayward, groundless reasoning just BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN LAPSE IN THE PRACTICLA APPLICAITONS OF ULTIMATE PRINCIPLE?<br />
<br />
<br />
Caution: Avoid slipping into change of goal post from that of principles to practical applications ref. Earlier comments of mine.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332513118891#c5226278336119783031" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 23, 2012 8:01 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c4007458259067124261"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01089766586196455989"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Lije</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">My sighs could produce a tornado. We have people being discriminated against heavily, just because of a birth based oppression system, which is due to the factors explained in my comments above. And yet here you are, talking about how it is all maya, all designed to deliver them from pain. Promise heaven (deliverance from 'illusion') and arrogate gatekeepers (Gurus) for that heaven. But don't do a thing to remove a flawed system. Mother Theresa would have been so very proud of this Ultimate Principle. I'm done with this discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332514055032#c4007458259067124261" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 23, 2012 8:17 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 6.0pt; margin-left: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 6.0pt;"><a href="" name="c6957233596845451888"></a><b><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;"><a href="http://www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="color: #e7553c;">Ramesh</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>said...<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="background: white; line-height: 19.2pt; margin-bottom: 9.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif;">Re: We have people being discriminated against heavily, just because of a birth based oppression system ...But don't do a thing to remove a flawed system.<br />
<br />
That’s altogether different issue and effort has been there as explained earlier. But this oppression, discrimination is not because of the factors explained in your comments but because of MISINTRERPRETATIONS just like you people do abundantly.<br />
<br />
Essence: Criticism should be because of the oppression, discrimination and not because there is necessarily a fault with the principles, values which it cherishes. Issue should be that of ‘REFORM’ and not ‘REVOLT/REBELLION’ that too in the name of SCIENCE!<br />
<br />
Anyway discussion was quite better than at Nirmukta forum though you people always miss sincerity, logic and reason and change of goal post though others are barred, warned for the same reason!<br />
<br />
Thanks for the freedom offered here, anyway.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="background: white; line-height: 16.8pt; margin-bottom: 24.0pt; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><a href="http://inversesquared.blogspot.com/2012/03/you-never-go-full-profound.html?showComment=1332515742294#c6957233596845451888" title="comment permalink"><span style="color: #e7553c;">MARCH 23, 2012 8:45 PM</span></a></span></span><span style="color: #333333; font-family: "Georgia","serif"; font-size: 8.5pt; letter-spacing: 1.2pt; text-transform: uppercase;"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div>Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-36913667432293633482011-11-21T08:38:00.000-08:002011-11-21T08:44:33.187-08:00Does God exist?<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on"><br />
<div style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"><br />
What a confusion! God is not a thing to be proved or disproved. Can you ever prove what is 1 (unit)? It is just a definition. So is the God at least in Hinduism. Rather passing the burden to prove the God onto those who believe it why not try to understand it and if not question it? Are you/atheists CONVENIENTLY ignore this just to hide your inability to reason?<br />
<br />
Here is stenger's Conclusion:<br />
<br />
The universe looks just like it can be expected to look if<br />
✦Humans are the source of morals and values.<br />
✦Evil is not prevented by a 3O God.<br />
✦The universe and life are not designed.<br />
✦Humans do not possess supernatural souls.<br />
✦No truths about universe have been supernaturally<br />
revealed.<br />
✦Universe arose naturally.<br />
✦Not congenial for humanity.<br />
✦Laws of nature came from nothing<br />
<br />
<br />
Still don't you find above conclusions JUST A LITTLE PART of the 'Ultimate principle'? Serious problem with your/atheist's understanding.<br />
<br />
<br />
Great thing lies ahead: Despite of above like conclusions by 'Ultimate principle' it puts up the CONCEPT of God (not as reality). That's where the reason is put to test. ONLY THOSE FACE WHO HAVE IT. It can't be matter of proof of God but to understand the concept for the very reason.<br />
<br />
<br />
ALL THIS IS CALLED HINDUISM where Dvaita (universe) and Advaita (brahman) complement each other and is a theory put by Maharshi Ved Vyasa.<br />
<br />
<br />
Note God is such a thing without which no major impact can be made upon the present world scenario SMOOTHLY. So all the political aspirants PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT GOD IS without which your beginning is likely to be as confused.</div></div>Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-87407671219265262942011-08-19T04:22:00.000-07:002011-08-19T04:22:09.566-07:00All India Against Corruption Supporters please read it!!<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on"><div class="copy fix"> <div class="post-header fix post-nothumb"> <div class="post-title-section fix"> <div class="post-title fix"> <h2><a href="http://sabhlokcity.com/2011/08/lets-breach-the-head-office-of-indias-enemies-its-parliament-%e0%a4%aa%e0%a4%b0%e0%a5%8d%e0%a4%b2%e0%a4%bf%e0%a4%85%e0%a4%ae%e0%a5%87%e0%a4%82%e0%a4%9f-%e0%a4%ae%e0%a5%87%e0%a4%82-%e0%a4%b8/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link to Let’s breach the head office of India’s enemies: its Parliament. पर्लिअमेंट में सेंघ लगाओ!">Let’s breach the head office of India’s enemies: its Parliament. पर्लिअमेंट में सेंघ लगाओ!</a></h2><div class="metabar"> <em> On August 19, 2011, in <a href="http://sabhlokcity.com/category/freedom-team/" rel="category tag" title="View all posts in Freedom Team">Freedom Team</a>, <a href="http://sabhlokcity.com/category/india/" rel="category tag" title="View all posts in India">India</a>, by Sanjeev Sabhlok </em> </div></div></div></div></div><div class="topsy_widget_data topsy_theme_blue" id="topsy_id3-1-3-1-13-1-1-3-1-1-3-1-1-1" style="background: url("data:,%7B%20%22url%22%3A%20%22http%253A%252F%252Fsabhlokcity.com%252F2011%252F08%252Flets-breach-the-head-office-of-indias-enemies-its-parliament-%2525e0%2525a4%2525aa%2525e0%2525a4%2525b0%2525e0%2525a5%25258d%2525e0%2525a4%2525b2%2525e0%2525a4%2525bf%2525e0%2525a4%252585%2525e0%2525a4%2525ae%2525e0%2525a5%252587%2525e0%2525a4%252582%2525e0%2525a4%25259f-%2525e0%2525a4%2525ae%2525e0%2525a5%252587%2525e0%2525a4%252582-%2525e0%2525a4%2525b8%252F%22%2C%20%22style%22%3A%20%22big%22%2C%20%22title%22%3A%20%22Let%27s%20breach%20the%20head%20office%20of%20India%27s%20enemies%3A%20its%20Parliament.%20%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%9F%20%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%98%20%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%93%21%22%20%7D") repeat scroll 0% 0% transparent; float: right; margin-left: 0.75em;"><div class="topsy-big"><a class="topsy-big-total snap_noshots" href="http://topsy.com/sabhlokcity.com/2011/08/lets-breach-the-head-office-of-indias-enemies-its-parliament-%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%9F-%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82-%E0%A4%B8/?utm_source=button"><span class="topsy-big-count"><span class="topsy-big-num">2</span><span class="topsy-big-unit">tweets</span></span></a><a class="topsy-big-retweet snap_noshots" href="http://button.topsy.com/retweet?nick=TopsyRT&url=http%3A//sabhlokcity.com/2011/08/lets-breach-the-head-office-of-indias-enemies-its-parliament-%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%9F-%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82-%E0%A4%B8/&title=Let%27s%20breach%20the%20head%20office%20of%20India%27s%20enemies%3A%20its%20Parliament.%20%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%9F%20%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%98%20%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%93%21" target="_blank">retweet</a></div></div>People keep complaining that they can't contest elections, that the corrupt – with muscle power and money – have taken over the parliament, and that it has lost legitimacy.<br />
That is why, they tell me, India is supporting an unconstitutional movement for reform that over-rides the parliament.<br />
Fine. I understand that.<br />
Indeed, that's what I've written in <strong><a href="http://bfn.sabhlokcity.com/"><em>BFN</em></a></strong>, that <strong>the laws of India ARE DESIGNED FOR CORRUPTION</strong>.<br />
I understand the anguish of those who find that their leaders are THOROUGH RASCALS.<br />
I understand why Baba Ramdev wants to hang the corrupt, and why Anna Hazare wants to have a Jan Lokpal who will bring these parliamentarians to account. <span style="background-color: yellow;"><span style="color: red;"><strong>The parliament has lost its legitimacy in the eyes of millions of Indians.</strong></span></span><br />
<span style="background-color: cyan;">But consider what I'm saying, for a moment.</span><br />
Consider a <span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: black; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 28px;">महासंग्राम. </span>Consider an ULTIMATE BATTLE against the corrupt.<br />
Consider a battle that doesn't BEG these rascals to give people the Lokpal. Consider a battle where we don't have to have Anna Hazare fast unto death in front of CORRUPT RASCALS.<br />
Consider a battle that SUCCEEDS in winning a great future for you and your children.<br />
<span style="font-size: 16px;"><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;">Today the parliament is like a fort occupied by India's enemies</span>. Inside it is the Congress – India's No.1 enemy, and BJP – which is not far behind.</strong></span><br />
And so, if your own representatives have become your No.1 enemy, then what should you do?<br />
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: black; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 49px; line-height: 28px;">पर्लिअमेंट में सेंघ लगाओ!</span><br />
<br />
<span style="font-size: 16px;"><strong><span style="background-color: yellow;"><span style="color: red;">Breach the parliament. Break into it. Become MPs yourself.</span></span></strong></span><br />
The only way to change India is to OVERTHROW THESE CORRUPT POLITICAL PARTIES.<br />
And to do that<span style="background-color: yellow;"> we need a <strong>good political party</strong></span>, that will bring INTEGRITY, PROSPERITY, AND FREEDOM TO INDIA.<br />
<span style="color: red;"><strong>We need a party that will bring CAPITALISM</strong></span>, not socialism, a <strong><span style="background-color: yellow;"><span style="color: red;">party that will bring prosperity and honesty</span></span></strong>, not poverty and corruption.<br />
And so, join the <strong><a href="http://freedomteam.in/">Freedom Team of India</a></strong> and let's launch a <span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: black; font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 28px;">महासंग्राम.</span><br />
<em>Note that FTI is NOT a political party, but its leaders WILL JOIN A NEW PARTY TO DEFEAT THESE CORRUPT RASCALS WHO GOVERN INDIA.</em><br />
<strong><span style="font-size: 16px;">Let's unite to BREAK INTO THE PARLIAMENT – through the hustings.</span></strong><br />
Let's DEFEAT these evil forces who govern India. It is a battle between the WHITE forces of good, and the BLACK forces of evil.<br />
<div style="text-align: center;">* * *</div>We <strong>want</strong> a Lokpal. And we <strong>SHALL</strong> have it. But without begging anyone.<br />
But we want <strong>MUCH more</strong> than the Lokpal. We want a large PACKAGE OF REFORMS. We must deal with the causes of corruption, not just try to fix those who are already corrupt. <span style="color: red;"><strong>We must ensure that the corrupt and criminals can't enter parliament in the first place.</strong></span><br />
<span style="color: mediumblue;"><span style="font-size: 16px;"><strong>To enact a PACKAGE OF REFORMS, we need to get elected ourselves, and we will then ENACT the entire package of reforms that India needs.</strong></span></span><br />
It is not that hard, really. It only needs <strong>one per cent of thousands of people</strong> who are currently running about in the streets in Ramdev's and Hazare's protest movements to join FTI. Once we have 1500 members ready to contest elections, we will start planning to contest parliamentary elections in 2014.<br />
If you do that, and work together as a team, <strong>I promise you, I guarantee you – YOU <u>WILL</u> GET WHAT YOU WANT</strong>.<br />
<span style="font-size: 16px;"><span style="background-color: yellow;"><span style="color: red;"><strong>So don't be beggars. Don't plead in front of a THOROUGHLY CORRUPT MANMOHAN SINGH. This man doesn't deserve <u><em>even </em></u>the dust of your feet, of your chappal.</strong></span></span></span><br />
<strong>LET'S DRIVE OUT THIS FOOLISH SLAVE OF THE CORRUPT CONGRESS PARTY.</strong><br />
Join hands to OVERTHROW these rascals who are destroying India – through the hustings. Join <a href="http://freedomteam.in/">FTI</a>.</div>Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-91602141083415573742010-09-26T01:05:00.001-07:002010-09-26T01:05:02.472-07:00More Understanding of the 'Ultimate Principle'Here is a comment posted on http://discovery.sabhlokcity.com/your-views/<br />
<br />
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><a href="" name="OLE_LINK1"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Dear Sabhlok,</span></span></a></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Recently I came across one of your basic thought vide </span></span></span><a href="http://sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">http://sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/</span></span></span></a><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">. And undoubtedly your DOF, BFN and the other forthcoming books and all that is seen in your blogs including the ideology (at least to some extent) of FTI<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>are the functions of this knowledge/thought of yours. As such this thought even though dealt in at your personal blog doesn’t make it personal but a social one as all these contribute to the social cause. In this sense alone, I post this comment here rather than at the above link. <u>You may remove it from here to there only to harm feedback to DOF. </u></span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">You wrote-</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18.0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 18.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">1.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Re:</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 8.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">My main message to everyone is simple: Find the truth YOURSELF. That means everything you think you know (and I think I know) is subject to question. Our lives are therefore only a preliminary essay in the truth; a feeble attempt to seek answers. Any ambition beyond that is, that we may actually know something, is delusional.</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">In this connection,</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Do you think everybody is capable of finding a truth himself/herself on their own? </span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 54.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list 54.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">a.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">If your answer is yes, then there will be as many truths as the number of persons in the world. It’s entirely absurd since truth can be only one. i.e. defining the same thing as many ways as the number of persons will only mess up the things.</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: 18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Example: It is just like asking everybody to define his own unit of length (say for example), then one will measure in cm, other in inches and so on. This system will run smoothly as long as everybody is isolated i.e. unsocial and when these all will be required to live socially there will only be a conflict since each will pursue his own unit assuming that his alone is truth. And this is what exactly is happening in present age. Different religions [assuming to be a unit (~of measurement) or set of conventions originally invented to streamline the life of social human beings] are pressing for their own ways assuming them alone to be truth. I am afraid if your theory of freedom also promotes the same! Because the responsibility and accountability along with such other things which you propose to impose on this freedom are themselves likely to be the results of these individual conventions (truths i.e. as many definitions of responsibility, accountability etc as the no of individuals) which you seem to be promoting!</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-left: 36.0pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-top: 12.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: 18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 54.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list 54.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">b.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">If answer is no, then everybody has to follow the same set of units or conventions {to be called as TRUTH} and everybody has to obey it. It amounts to saying that the rest of the people should believe in the interpretations of these conventions/units by a specialist, expert, scientist (to be called as Gnani in Indian tradition). Here note that the Gnani (Don’t feel taboo since he is just a specialist like you) is a one who alone knows the usefulness of the conventions/units to be defined just like a technician. Everybody cannot be made to understand why it is so defined as such or what it means [i.e. they are supposed to test only the final product like TV or mobile without going into intricacies of how it works since every individual cannot afford it] because that convention/unit (Truth~Gnan) would be the result of convenience and usefulness which takes into account all the facets of human being over a period of time and is judged in every possible way by such an expert. (How it is to be done is a different thing altogether e.g. <b><u>approach</u></b> of FTI.)</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Example: All the people within a same religion obey the beliefs (conventions/units) and hence fewer conflicts compared to the situation in case 1 as above. Of course, even in this case problems arise not because of the beliefs (conventions/units) themselves but because these are not interpreted (change meanings) accordingly as per the time and space by taking into account physical (scientific) advances etc by an expert (Gnani). Thus it is not a question of beliefs but question of interpretation of the same by experts. </span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 54.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list 54.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">c.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><u><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">May I know which answer do you prefer to your very very basic proposition either 1, 2 or something else? </span></u></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 54.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list 54.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">d.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Key to my intention in asking above is that NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE (INCLUDING ITSELF) IS ABSOLUTE AND THE UNIVERSE TAKES THE FORM WE THINK IT TO BE MOST CONVENIENT<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>(e.g. <span style="text-transform: uppercase;">at present as an energy</span>)-<u> </u></span></span></span><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><u><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 6.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">A COROLLARY OF ‘THE ULTIMATE PRINCIPLE’</span></u></span></span><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><u><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 7.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">.</span></u></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Hence a basic question of finding a truth by individual doesn’t arise at all!!</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
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</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18.0pt; mso-list: l3 level1 lfo4; tab-stops: list 18.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">2.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Re:</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18.0pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 7.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">"Who exactly am I?" This question will need a response more subtle and complex than the mere routine description about my career or life journey. But unfortunately, I'm not quite sure at the moment who, or more precisely, what I am. Does my consciousness, also found equally among all human beings, exist outside space and time – or does it have properties like any other form of energy? I'm going to explore this issue in one of my future books, but it currently appears unlikely to me that I'll make any major breakthrough. Let me park this question for now, anyway, and revert to more mundane, material things that we are more comfortable talking about.</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 54.0pt; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list 54.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">a.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">This question should have formed the part of “Creation, stardust and carbon”. Without above question soul of this chapter is missing.<u> In this sense this comment is relevant here.</u></span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 54.0pt; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list 54.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">b.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">It is an answer to this question that breaks the barrier of an individual from the social one since an answer can only be a unique and then there remains nothing such as a personal except some mundane things! It is a question which sowed the seeds of all the religions and they evolved as an answer to this question. Answers were different hence the different religions. <u>However their answers they were able to carry the people with them, the reason being not the absolute truth of the answers but the existence of the answers itself.</u> <u>What we need today is a unique answer consistent with the science</u> [which I tried at “The Ultimate Principle” –which you have taken for as a personal one.] <u>which alone may show us a way to carry the people with us <b>for the sake of better society like FTI is promoting</b> and <b>not</b> for the sake of <b>people itself</b> for gaining popularity alone.</u></span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 54.0pt; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list 54.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">c.<span style="font: 7.0pt "Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">When you parked that question, was not that a death? Here death means living without eyes. Without an answer however we proceed that will all be only blindfolded!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Its aftermath say DOF etc will ever be an eye opener then? People (except few intelligentsias) will never follow you because you expect the majority to understand on themselves which has happened never in the past nor will ever happen in the future. Not all the People (by their limitation in the genes itself) possess the power to identify the truths by themselves which you expect. Majority understands the language of sentiments, emotions, sympathy and a <b><u>similar language</u></b>. <b><u>It is this language consistent with the final truth that we need to specialize in order to establish the ideal society by way of FTI.</u></b> We need this majority to bring a change for once and all. </span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
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</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">3. </span></span></span><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><b><u><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">If you think anything above as personal</span></u></b></span></span><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"> then rest assured that FTI will also be a personal approach of yours <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>or a group of few which majority will hardly side with for their inherent weakness!</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Is it likely to make any basic impact on BOF or BFN or FTI?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I think yes in r/o style of approach and not the goal itself.</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 9.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">N.B. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>I don’t have literary skills. Apologies if such omissions occur inadvertently. </span></span></span></div>Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-3140074657709446692010-09-23T22:06:00.001-07:002010-09-24T00:13:37.387-07:00Proper understanding of the 'Ultimate Principle'<span style="font-size: xx-small;">Shri Sabhlok replied as follows to the 'Ultimate Principle'.</span><br />
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<span style="font-size: xx-small;">Dear Ramesh, thanks for the detailed note you sent. Just a few points (I'll also send by email).</span><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><b><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Re: When it is well known that energy can never be created</span></b><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><span style="font-size: xx-small;">True, in a closed system energy can’t be created. However, as Rajaji notes in one of his books, “Out of nothing, nothing can come. The causeless beginning was Sat, being with consciousness”. Anyway, this is the whole point. I have no answer on this. Your assumption is yours. I don’t comment on it.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><b><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Re: the things which do not have origin, they don’t actually exist.</span></b><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Clearly, I’m lost. Just because energy (according to you) could not have been created, it doesn’t make it non-real.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><b><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Advaita School of philosophy states that Brahman is the ultimate truth. And Dvaita states that Maya is truth. The secret is that one is non-existent without the other. </span></b><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><span style="font-size: xx-small;">All this is a philosophical viewpoint. I have no comment since this doesn’t interest me.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><b><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Re: Advaita states that Universe never existed as such hence the theory of creation as illustrated in various shastras is for the sake of ‘Common’ human beings. However you put up the theory of creation all hold equally good. It needs only to satisfy the common sense of the common man. Its purpose can’t be more than that.</span></b><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><span style="font-size: xx-small;">I talk for the benefit only of common men and women. I don’t care for uncommon men and women. If these theories can feed them, please use them. Else this information is irrelevant. </span><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><b><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Re: Gnani is a one who identifies himself with the above principle, the only truth. And as such he alone holds the authority to interpret or to establish the laws for the rest of the Human beings. </span></b><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><span style="font-size: xx-small;">I disagree. I need to ask many, many questions! Who is this Gnani? You? Then please write a book explaining how to create a wealthy and healthy India using your principles.</span><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Regards</span><br />
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"> </span><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Sanjeev</span><br />
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I replied it as follows:<br />
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<div style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Dear Sabhlok,</span></div><div style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Please proceed to read the following only if you think the ‘Creation, Stardust and Carbon’ is an essential and serious enough chapter of your DoF. Or else I suggest you to acknowledge in DoF itself that this chapter is not of that substantial nature and the discussion on this may be avoided.</span></div><div style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">I regret my last comment failed miserably to kindle and arouse the much expected curiosity and get the same quenched adequately about the very basic question of scientific creation of universe which, in your view, however, turned out to be a <u>pure personal matter which bothered you the least</u>. </span></div><div style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Before I post my future comments on this blog I expect a healthy, deep and sincere attitude as the same has come under doubt <u>for the reasons detailed below</u> and since these may have a lasting effect on both your books.</span></div><div style="margin-left: 36.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">1.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal;"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Re: When it is well known that energy can never be created…….You replied ending that it is my personal assumption and that you have no comments and that further you did not elaborate on ‘sat and consciousness’. May I request you to read the same once again and see whether it is scientific or personal one? <u>Just because it is beyond your personal comprehension doesn’t make it necessarily a personal thing and devoid of the pure science and which at the same time is so relevant to your concerned chapter.</u> Don’t you think you are insincere in accepting your inability to comprehend the same? Don’t you think this attitude of yours make this chapter of yours less serious and devoid of adequate responsibility? </span></div><div style="margin-left: 36.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">2.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal;"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Re:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>the things which do not have origin, they don’t actually exist…..You replied that it doesn’t make the universe a non real. Note that <u>‘Things do not exist’ is a result of the above science</u> (the principle - which you should either understand or be unable to do so but could never call it personal) and that <u>‘universe is not unreal</u>’ <u>is what we see and perceive</u>. <u>The secret of universe and also the success of science lies in reconciling these seemingly contradictions which are a result of the same scientific approach.</u> You have poorly failed to realise this implication of the comment and comment on it accordingly.</span></div><div style="margin-left: 36.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">3.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal;"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Advaita School of philosophy states that Brahman is the ultimate truth and…….you ended saying these are philosophical views. Here you have <u>safely ignored</u> the <i><u>scientific</u></i><u> answer provided to the above contradiction by the Advaita and Dvaita.</u> Here you failed to draw a proper line of difference between philosophy and science. It is a result of you strong pre-conviction that these (Advaita etc) are only philosophy- a personal and private things! Do you have any right to call a thing a philosophy when it is in consonance with the science simply because of your <u>pre-conceived ideas and your inability to see the pure science in so called philosophy</u>? </span></div><div style="margin-left: 36.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">4.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal;"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Re: Advaita states that Universe never existed as such hence the theory of creation as illustrated in various shastras is for the sake of ‘Common’ human beings… You replied that you care only for commons….and that my comment is to feed those who feed on it. Is not your theory of Capitalism and Freedom for the commons ones? <u>Then why does not it find instant acceptance by the common Indians/and elsewhere? </u>The answer is- to begin with, every common thing is an uncommon thing till the common understands it. Thus you failed badly to understand that ‘<u>it is a matter of understanding by the common one’ and not a matter of ‘commons and uncommons’ itself.</u> You also indirectly meant (by ‘all are common’) that all men are equal in intelligence and wisdom and in similar respects. They why this different opinions and debates in real life? And why one should listen to Swami Vivekanand and similars? Why not leave all our efforts to set the things right, right now if all are equal? Being all equal there won’t be any cause to fight for!!!. My essence is that all men are not equal, but some are more equal and among these again some are more equal and so on. Thus it forms the pyramid and not a flat in r/o ability, intelligence, qualifications, skills (and also in r/o of governance to be discussed separately) etc. <u>You took the things entirely wayward!!!</u></span></div><div style="margin-left: 36.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"><span style="mso-list: Ignore;">5.<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-size: 7pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal;"> </span></span></span><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Re: Gnani is a one who identifies himself with the above principle, the only truth. And as such he alone holds the authority to interpret or to establish the laws for the rest of the Human beings……… here you decried the Gnani as defined by me (or rather by the principle) and instead exhorted to me to use the above principles to create wealthy and healthy India.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Do you means that in this blog and other similar things we are trying to play against each other and making a time-pass? You fail to see that <u>seating somewhere on the scale of knowledge, wisdom, understanding etc we are not only writing a book but also trying to create a great wealth and health and much more for the Indians through this blog and my comments (ultimate principle – outcome of your chapters insufficient approach) are part of that effort and thus discharging our duty as a Gnani (at least to some extent- till it finds total acceptance)</u></span></div><div style="margin-left: 18.0pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">Thus don’t you think such a sort of understanding on your part is something unmaking of you? My last comment (The ultimate principle as a pure science- and never as a personal thing even though it is my version) is likely to have a lasting effect on your approach (and not in r/o the goal of eradication of all the ills which human is suffering from- with which I myself have identified long ago) and everything in the world. However I do don’t expect this sort of the attitude and superficial level of depth of understanding on your part <u>as detailed above</u> since it will make our effort more tedious and <u>exhaust us unproductively.</u></span></div><div style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">In case you find anything in the above comment anything such as a personal (remarks) or private things, then you or me or anybody else will have to forfeit his right to think about the others since the life itself is a thing of personal/private concern (whether it affect the other or not~ treating human unsocial)! <u>I hope you will never agree to this!</u></span></div><div style="margin-left: 36.0pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">I will be grateful to you if you let me know how I misunderstood you or lack the sufficient knowledge in the above reasoning if any (except a sort like yours as above!)</span></div>Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-47978457866059810872010-09-14T10:04:00.000-07:002010-09-14T10:04:07.068-07:00The Ultimate truth, the secret of the Universe unveiled.During the course of the online discussion with FTI and Shri Sabhok there came the occasion wherein I have tried to unveil the secret of the Universe. It reads as follows......<br />
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Dear Sabhok,<br />
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I regret I got disheartened after a glimpse of ‘Discovery of freedom’ wherein I noticed few misinterpretations/misunderstanding about some issues of Indian philosophy and in this sense alone as ‘adharmic’ in nature. To start with I herein touch only one of the very very basic and fundamental secrete (?) to which you have referred to in the chapter ‘Creation, stardust and carbon’. It relates to the ultimate secret of the universe, its origin and its scientific revelation.<br />
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If I am not mistaken you ended with the hope on present day materialistic science to solve the ultimate secret of ‘Energy’ or ‘Universe’.<br />
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You also referred to ‘Advaita’, however ended with saying that such things raise more questions than they address without mentioning even a single question about the same.<br />
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“The comment here onwards is my own original version or interpretation and I do not pass the responsibility to any other even if I quote others”<br />
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Now find herewith the ultimate secret of the universe which is so implicit throughout the work of ‘Maharshi Veda Vyasa’ which the modern world is yet failing to understand for want of pure scientific and unending curiosity ironically for which it is so well known. I apologies for this principle (law) when revealed half (one of the two as mentioned in the following table) may cause havoc as well, as it is just like double edged sword. Hope you understand it to its core. It runs like this..<br />
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The ultimate principle: The following two halfs taken together constitute this principle. <br />
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Sl no First half (all items grouped under it are identical) Second half (all items grouped under this are identical) Remarks<br />
1 Advaita Dvaita Work of Maharshi Veda Vyasa.(?)<br />
2 Purusha (~male) Prakriti (~female) Similar sage or –do-<br />
3 Shiva Shakti ,,<br />
4 Brahman Maya ,,<br />
5<br />
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7 Energy can never be created Nor it can ever be destroyed. The fundamental law of science.<br />
8 Electric loop Magnetic field -do-; These are never separable, and one is the cause of the other. One is meaningless without the other.<br />
Both these halfs together form a complete and give the universe its present form. The secret unveiled. These are two sides of the same coin which are never separable nor do they cross ever. . …<br />
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Explanation: (In the reverse order.)<br />
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1. When it is well known that energy can never be created it is utterly nonsense and meaningless even to make effort to account for the existing one. This proposition is very simple but very difficult to grasp and digest. It is purely scientific.<br />
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Because there can never be any explanation for the existing energy. To make simple – the things which do not have origin, they don’t actually exist. <br />
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As such is it ever possible for the science to account for the existing universe according to its own law? It is never. <br />
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The first fall out of the above principle is that the time and space, the two basic concepts exist relatively and are meaningless when talked absolutely. (If I am not mistaken Einsteins theory of relativity states the same. If not I apologies the same for mentioning his name and theory)<br />
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2. Similar reasoning holds good for the electric loop and magnetic field for it’s futile to find the origin of each in themselves. (my knowledge about these is limited. If contrary is true this example may be struck, it won’t make any difference upon the above principle)<br />
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3. Advaita School of philosophy states that Brahman is the ultimate truth. And Dvaita states that Maya is truth. The secret is that one is non-existent without the other. Tragedy is that both failed to understand the same independently except the work of ‘Maharshi Veda Vyasa’ who took both into account at a time in all his work including the Vedas- (He was not a writer of it only in the sense that existing energy can never be accounted for and hence its existence even before the existence of the universe--- be careful likely to get confused horribly. I can’t write everything for it may run too long)<br />
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Advaita states that Universe never existed as such hence the theory of creation as illustrated in various shastras is for the sake of ‘Common’ human beings. However you put up the theory of creation all hold equally good. It needs only to satisfy the common sense of the common man. Its purpose can’t be more than that.<br />
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Dvaita states that the common is a common. The principles of advaita are out of the scope of the commons. For theirs sake there must be origin or else only havoc will ensue. Hence the need to accept the Maya or the Existing Energy as the ultimate truth (purely for the sake of Human beings.)<br />
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Thus both schools are true at their individual level but by this time you may have understood that they are just two halves of the basic principle ‘ Energy can never be created nor it can ever be destroyed.’ And as such two sides of the same coin each being meaningless without the other.<br />
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4. Shiv-Parvati (Shakti) etc ( and it may include the entire Hindu tradition) are just two sides of the above depicted coin. Similar reasoning holds good for Prakriti-Purush and Brahman- Maya etc…….. Or alternatively the Shiv-ling which consists of two parts are actually consists of these two halve. The main linga indicates the “Advaita” and on which this linga is supported, the lower portion indicates the “Dvaita”. ..and Only in this sense this tradition is worth sustaining.<br />
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<u>Gnani is a one who identifies himself with the above principle, the only truth. And as such he alone holds the authority to interpret or to establish the laws for the rest of the Human beings. You know only the scientist or technologist alone holds the authority to design the machine. None other is eligible to do the same. Others do by virtue of their knowledge can become a scientist or technologist, the thing is different. If this rule is broken only the distortion is outcome.</u><br />
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Therefore the Dharma is one which Gnani defines who takes into account the entire gamut of truth into account. And the other only follow it. <br />
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This comment is incomplete and will be resumed after your considered questions that may follow this. I am eager to know your doubts………at least, in the process, I may get rectified.Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-79069423355651675322010-09-06T01:22:00.000-07:002010-09-06T01:22:09.300-07:00comment on the post http://freedomteam.in/blog/content/religious-freedom-and-toleranceDear friends,<br />
It is the ‘Dharma’ which gives the animal the form of ‘Being Human’. It was the Hindu Dharma which gave the now thinking animal a form of Being Human. Similar efforts were made by the Jain, Boudha, Christen, Islam etc Dharmas including Hindu which were turned into Religions (English term) due to Veil nature of this animal (Human Beings). It is originally the Dharma which defines the Politics, Governance, Society and so on. Religion is the term which the foreign culture has given the name to this Dharma. Due to inappropriate conceptions of the Dharma, the term Religion not necessarily implies the same thing as the Dharma does.<br />
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When Politics is separated from the Dharma, the politics become the law of the animals not of the Human beings. If problems are created with the Politics, then effort to establish the Dharma with its pristine purity should be made and that it could never be separated from the Dharma which is its seed, the father.<br />
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At FTI if it is true that the Dharma is being separated from the politics by confusing the Dharma with the English term Religion, it will be more disastrous than any past happenings in the history of the human race.<br />
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Is there anybody who can clarify the stand of FTI? Dear Sabhlok, Shantanu……..Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-78742373468764934552010-08-22T04:18:00.000-07:002010-08-22T04:18:09.424-07:00The recent comment on Dharma in response to the ongoing debate on Shantanus blogBelow is produced the original comment in full in response to the ongoing debate on Dharma over http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/02/08/dharma-harapriya/#comment-98411.<br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Dear friends,</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I wish this debate end with the enlightenment to the deserved ones [and may equal to God Krishna ?]</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Dharma began in the ancient days, accomplished its goal to the extent possible, got distorted over the period of time (as if it were its virtue) and today it need to be re-established again in its pristine purity.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">It means…,</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Dharma is that set of rules which ultimately and anyhow (including <u>apparently</u> adharmic way-a great contradiction indeed but true) brings about the ultimate welfare (Kalyan) to the individual and the society (via- dharma-artha-kam-moksha etc)</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><u><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">The ultimate knowledge [Jnana] </span></u><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">(e.g. assimilating the fact of Dvaita and Advaita as two sides of the same coin) <u>ordains the man to be dharmic (as per individual Patrata-eligibility)</u> because of his social nature. If man were unsocial animal nothing could have been emerged out. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Thus Dharma had its origin to the Jnana and nothing else. Only Jnani can say what is dharma and it is purely a relative term. Only the Jnana is absolute. Therefore as per place and time (Desh, Kal anusar) the sense of dharma and its meaning changes. Therefore we for the intellectuals who are a bit short of Jnana along with the rest of others the term Dharma is so confusing and contradictory.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Jnani is a one to whom nothing is a secret. Universe begins and dies with him and assumes the form he wishes. (don’t panic it’s purely scientific. Once you get enlightened as per above clue to Jnana, you are sure to experience the same). He alone knows the entire gamut of the human nature, his physical and mental impulses and taking into account the same he defines dharma and creates the power (king) to establish it and then king sustains himself by protecting the dharma. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">That is why so long as the dharma is there the welfare of the society is guaranteed and the moment dharma vanishes society succumbs to the pain (dukha) and also causes the power (raj satta) to fail.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">The meaning of dharma extends from negative extremity to positive extremity depending on desh, Kal and circumstances and from person to person. Traditions, dharmgranthas, Raj-dharma etc are a part of that Dharma which originated from the Jnana of the Jnani (Guru-e.g. Vyasa)</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">For Dharma,</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Hinsa- Ahinsa</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>False-truth</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Adharma-dharma</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Adultery- Brahmacharya</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Corruption-non corruption</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Pap (sin) -Punya (good) …..and so……….</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">are APPARENTLY equal! (that is why its so confusing for the mandane man). Commitment of hinsa cannot be cited as adharma e.g. Swamis example in one of the above comments. Our Itihasa and scriptures are witness to this sort of Dharma. When the time comes to establish the Best Government as desired by FTI we may need to pass through all these (apparently) negative acts without hesitation and in keeping with the dharma (Welfare Policies- to be formulated). </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">But the great danger exists here. The veil man making use of these principles may engage himself in a virtually Adharmic acts which are detrimental to the society and individual. To avoid this danger the power to define the dharma between the above two extremities is given only to Jnanies and not even to Kings (the government, the power as is done today) because they are not eligible for the same as explained above. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">That is why Jnana is limited only to Brahmans (<u>not by birth</u> but by karma) and not the rest. It is justified for this reason.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Therefore my friends we first need Jnanies who define Dharma (policies in todays context) and who create the power (the King, the government in todays context) and then we need the Kings (Political Leaders) who will run the government based on that Dharma (policies). That is my essence. Thus Politics base itself on the Dharma. How is it then that it can ever be separated from Dharma. Only in present days when there is a gross distortion of the Dharma and to avoid its misuse, talk of separating dharma from politics is being made. For this reason it can never be a lasting solution.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">{<span style="mso-tab-count: 1;"> </span>Here it is to be noted that in todays context the policies of the government should become the dharma of the society otherwise policy cannot be of any use. Of course at present the Indian Constitution (the Modern Dharma- which is a source of all the policies) lacks the ability to bring the intent of the dharma (i.e. Welfare of the entire society) the thing is entirely different and that is why this movement for better government is going on.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>}</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">--</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">To be eligible for Jnani following pre-requisites are necessary.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">The core (die hard) curiosity to know and understand the secret of the universe.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Past examples of such Jnani i.e. Krishna, Ram , Ved-Vyas.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">It is not that the materialistic scientists alone are trying to solve the secrets of the universe. In principle, whatever discoveries and inventions are made it would be only infinitesimal part of the great secrete. (even though this is a fact materialistic sense of inquiry should never be discouraged. In Indian tradition the same materialistic curiosity was not upto the mark. We should regret it. It was due to the distortion of the Jnana and Dharma perhaps.)</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">In our philosophical treaties like Advaita and Dvaita, Bhagavat Geeta etc the above secret has been pointed out abundently long ago. But still these are only secrets and debate goes on about their meanings just like now. That is a tragedy. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">It is the original thinking that alone can lead to this secret of Universe. If one tries to transfer the same most of it gets distorted and misplaced. </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">You see that secret is unveiled as above. But do we understand it? Perhaps we lack sense of curiosity to the core.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Please note that above comments cover almost the entire gamut of Human Life in few words (there is no alternative either. Dharma can never be understood by delinking it from the Jnana). So when read in haste can create lot of confusion.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">For the sake of Dharma please comment.</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Dear Shantanu,</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The subject of Jnana is so vital and fundamental that it may need separate blog for discussion. Without this however discussions, debate are made about the dharma, politics, morale …..etc which are all the products of the Jnana alone can never bear the desired and long lasting fruits. How do you think?</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
</div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">End. </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><br />
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</div>Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-10541518000446583782010-08-22T04:10:00.000-07:002010-09-05T23:40:05.140-07:00Hope! In the near future the FTI will take over the Indian Government for the betterment of all and establish the Dharma as it is!<span style="font-size: small;">Recently after this blog was started I came across the FTI over the net. I liked the Ideas. I contacted one of the member and exchanged the Ideas. Then I saw the Shantanus blog, and Sabhlokcity web. The Ideas were similar.</span><br />
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<span style="font-size: small;">The first issue I came across was "Dharma". Immediately I exchanged the ideas with some members and even posted a comment on </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/02/08/dharma-harapriya/#comment-98411.</span></u><u><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></u><br />
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<span style="font-size: small;">Here I am reproducing the the ideas which I exchanged with these members. Note that I haven't modified the same for this blog. However the idea can be conveyed easily.</span><br />
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<span style="font-size: small;">Please read on.</span><br />
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<span style="font-size: small;">3rd email.</span><br />
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<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">Dear Sabhlok,</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">I recently came across the FTI, a bit of your bio-data and related websites, and I understand that you are one of the ardent propogator of human welfare. I am so excited happily. During the last few years my philosophical thinking (about the ultimate truth) got finalized to the core of my curiosity and its essence is the Welfare of the society. The same truth has been evident from here and there in Indian philosophy, Ramayan, Mahabharata etc. but the veil man (don’t take it verbatim) hardly understands it. Anyway it’s as complicated as simple. The right perspective comes only through the curiosity to understand the ultimate truth. The ultimate truth (Welfare of the mankind) which is in consonance with the Advaita and Dvaita can only be established through the Dharma which is a set of rules which governs the individual and society for its eternal welfare. </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">Sir, to me Dharma and Politics co-exist i.e. without Dharma no Political existence and without Political Power Dharma cannot last. I have been having a detailed discussion on this issue with one of the FTI member. I reproduce the same here verbatim. I will be happy if you let me know your views on the same. Either I will correct myself or you will be rectified. Please read on………..</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
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</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: red;"><span style="font-size: small;">1</span><sup><span style="font-size: small;">st</span></sup><span style="font-size: small;"> email……dated 16.08.10</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
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</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">Dear friend,</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">I am a bit hopeful now that a company of friends who aim at </span><u><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-size: small;">Ramarajya</span></span></u><span style="font-size: small;"> do exist in the world after seeing the FTI.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">But given the political tag on the lines of rest of the political parties in India and out of India to the FTI, I fear some day it may fade away or become just like rest of those political parties who initially start with a big bang (high ideas) and after they taste the power during the course of time they just replace the same with the majority appeasement so that they themselves sustain.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">Because the human history is witness to the above fact leave alone the present day parties like BJP, congress etc. Still in the books (Mahabharat, Ramayan, Chanakya niti etc) written by the wise the reason for the above mentioned downfall is abundantly mentioned. </span><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-size: small;">IT IS THE FALL OF DHARMA.</span></span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">DHARMA is that set of rules which should govern the conduct of each individual for his own welfare, happiness etc so that society can sustain healthily. But note that DHARMA is framed only by the wise based on the experience of thousands of years and its practical implications (taking into account the impulses of mind and body etc. with pure scientific temper) and the rest of the people can only follow it. That’s all.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">For the present day scenario in India the “Constitution” has become our Dharma which treats the donkeys and horses alike and legalizes the two donkeys to rule upon a single horse because donkeys are in a majority. i.e. it legalizes the ruling by 51 foolish men over the 49 wise men in a society of 100 men. This is just one of the numerous pitfalls of a democracy. Whereas in SANATANA dharma a rule by a single wise men governs the universe. This is a contradiction, so the above downfall. Of course we today’s people don’t know a better thing than this worst democracy, the thing is different. That’s why this FTI (?).</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">The above argument can never be interpreted as supporting the castism, superstitions in our religions and so on. It only means a proper scientific interpretations of the DHARMA (the original sense with which they were written and which ultimately aim only at KALYAN of the society) which were distorted a long ago which ruined the India (nay, the world) till today.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
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</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">Now the question comes who will define the Dharma and its details and how, how the rest will accept it in the present world etc…….</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">If one sincerely tries to answer the same and if it is not the change of subject and our topic of discussion, according to me he should first be able to answer the following questions.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 54.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 54.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">1.</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">What is the secret of the Universe?</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 54.0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 54.0pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: -18.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">2.</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman"; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">Are rebirths, Gods etc </span><b><u><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-size: small;">a scientific or otherwise </span></span></u></b><span style="font-size: small;">a truth?</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">These are only a token questions. In </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: red;"><span style="font-size: small;">our struggle</span></span><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;"> we will face still challenging questions and circumstances and we should be able to answer the same easily.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><b><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">Note that in answering the above questions many have lived their entire life and died empty. Not only that but religions like Islam, Christen and Hindu etc came into existance only to answer the above question but in reality all these are existing today in a distorted manner and are causing havoc in the society.</span></span></b></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
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</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">But my dear fried we can make a change. We only need the answers to above sort of questions. If yours match that with of mine we have own and we will be strengthened. If not, we can only follow the best whomsoever we believe and be one of the routine. </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">If you think you need the help to answer the above sort of questions feel free to contact me. I do have the perfect answers which can satisfy a perfect MUMUKSU and who is with a perfect scientific temperament. </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">If you think FTI has nothing to do with such sort of discussion, thinking etc., then my friend rest assured that yours party will be a sort of BJP, Congress etc sooner or later.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
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</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">Waiting for your reply.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">My id: </span><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><a href="mailto:rkumarane@gmail.com"><span style="font-size: small;">rkumarane@gmail.com</span></a></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size: small;">With Best wishes.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
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</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: red;"><span style="font-size: small;">2</span><sup><span style="font-size: small;">nd</span></sup><span style="font-size: small;"> email……dated 20.08.10</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Dear Sandeep,</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><u><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">[“By Dharma I does not mean the traditional Hindu, Islam or Christen etc. but the core scientific blend of all these which promotes only the welfare of the Individual and the Society as a whole. It may mean cleansing and strengthening of these”. Its establishment is</span><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">a first step towards anything. ‘How to do the same’ I wish at FTI we all to plan the same.]</span></span></u></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">I regret the full implications/meaning of my last email could not reach (understand) you. But its quite common. Here is a better effort to make you understand the same.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Please recall the phonic discussion we had on 19.08.10 after you just replied me in email. </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops: 111.2pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="color: red; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">You wrote</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">,</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops: 111.2pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="color: red;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="color: red; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">“</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">I believe</span></span><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> the </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">dharma has to be re-established </span></u><span style="font-size: small;">in order to bring in the</span><u><span style="font-size: small;"> peace to society</span></u><span style="font-size: small;">. But </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">that</span></u><span style="font-size: small;"> has to be done by the </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">religious societies, trusts</span></u><span style="font-size: small;">. Govt must concentrate on </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">governance</span></u><span style="font-size: small;"> and should not interfere in religious or moral work. Yes it must encourage good initiatives but should not do it on own. Upholding dharma or restructuring it can be done by </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">devoted religious people</span></u><span style="font-size: small;"> where </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">money and power is not </span></u><span style="font-size: small;">involved. </span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">FTI does believe in </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">liberal</span></u><span style="font-size: small;"> way of thinking like most of the Hindus. FTI is not coming into existence to taste the power or its fruits. We have clear goal of improving the </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">governance</span></u><span style="font-size: small;"> and uphold </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">liberal and tolerant nature</span></u><span style="font-size: small;"> of Bharat without compromising </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">internal security</span></u><span style="font-size: small;">. We have a stringent set of rules for </span><u><span style="font-size: small;">accountability and responsibility</span></u><span style="font-size: small;"> through checks and balances. We seek leaders, who are willing to lead the attack against ills of current society. </span><i><u><span style="font-size: small;">One can always uphold dharma and protect it without invading other's liberty</span></u></i><span style="font-size: small;">.</span></span><span style="color: red; font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">”</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
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</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">--Your intent if I am not misunderstood is that “Religion (Dharma) and Politics are two different things and should not ever be mixed.” May be todays political philosophers/intelligentisa say this. But here the thinking of such Sayers is that “they understand the religion just as a thing of personal practice and has very little to do with the majority society and if it is mixed with the politics or governance it will dissatisfy the minorities and may go against their beliefs and this would be against the political parties in power and similar implications for the politics. ” But this type of thinking is opportunistic in nature as detailed in following paras.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">Why Dharma (Religion) and Politics are not different?</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Ans: </span><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Dharma is that set of rules which govern the conduct of the individual and of a group of people or society which is devoted to it for the welfare of the individual and the society as a whole.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">Whereas the Politics is just one of the branches of the dharma i.e. Politics is dictated by the Dharma. That is why Politics cannot be without ethics. Note that a saint (Jnani, Guide, or set of Rules, Dharma) who is the embodiment of Dharma creates (dictates) the Raja or Government which runs the Politics. So long there is a above said saint (Jnani, Guide, or set of Rules) the Politics remains for the welfare of the society and the moment he (saint, Dharma) is ‘out’ the governance(politics) becomes an ‘Anarchy’.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Recall that all the past Political “Yuddhas (Wars)” were “Dharmyuddhas”. It was for Dharma that Rama killed the Ravana. On the Kurukshetra Krishna the Political leader and embodiment of Dharma (both at a time) preached the Political leader Arjuna a Dharmashastra (Geeta) on the Political Platform during the Political Mahayuddha in Mahabharat. And only after that understanding the Dharma that he won the Political War and not before that.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">If you look at the globe you will find that it is the Islam and Christen Dharmas that have made the Political countries in the world. If it was not for Dhama then there would have not been any political boundaries in our country or any where in the world. </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">Then where do we find the separation of Dharma and Politics?</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">You see that Universe itself is a concept of a Dharma (Dharma is pure science) and not that of Politics. Then how is that Politics is not governed by Dharma. </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">But still, why in 21</span><sup><span style="font-size: small;">st</span></sup><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">Century in our country this separation of Dharma is propogated?... Because these half baked thinkers think …….</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">“ Most of todays Political thinkers think that democracy is the best ever system world has known. Because there is maximum freedom of expression, belief, practice, liberty etc. whereas in Dharmic Societies (like Islam) the individual is deprived of the same and is under social/political obligation to suffocate himself and bury all his expressions etc. Especially in Indian society where so many different religions exist and politics has become so competitive</span><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">and challenging. In such a situation if the Political power favours one Dharma/Religion then the rest gets annoyed and the internal security may get challenged and chaos will prevail. Apart from this the Party in Power will become the target of the minorities and it may lose the power. Therefore in todays era where mind blogging scientific/ technological advancement is being done it will be worthless and retrogatory step to bring the traditional Dharma in Politics. Therefore Politics and Dharma should not be mixed.”</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">What a wonderful exposition! Don’t you agree to this? !!!!!! Don’t get tempted.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Then my dear friend don’t you think that it is evident from the above argument that it is for internal security and stability/peace and in keeping with the India’s tolerant attitude that this separation of Politics and Dharma is argued!!</span><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">Yes it so only.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Then it is evident that it is the religious minorities that are a real and great threat to Indias Governance and its internal security and not the mixing of the Dharma with Politics as is being argued. You know that in Islamic countries Politics is run as per the Shariat (Dharma) and not necessarily as per the fair governing rules. For most of the countries Religion is far more important that the fair Politics. E.g.</span><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">Osma bin Laden. In our country also when these minority religious people have to choose between the fair government and their religion they will always choose their own religion only and your fair accountable/transparent etc government will go to the hell! At a single call from their religious counterparts outside India they will ruin India and make it their religious land. (and we will allow it because we are tolerant and free minded! That is why what we are today!). </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">That is why these religious minorities bear the core sympathy to their counter parts in whatever developments outside </span><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><span style="font-size: small;">India</span></st1:place></st1:country-region><span style="font-size: small;"> in their favour. I have seen it in Cricket matches for simple example. (There are few exceptions, they are not a matter of concern.) </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">(If you think this argument is in favour of Islamic countries, or Bin Laden it will be gross misunderstanding because their Dharma is not scientific or accepted universally.)</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">In summary Dharma as noted at the top of the article is always at the core of every human individual and Politics should always be in consonance with that religion. Then can you ever separate the religion from Politics even if one wishes? Theoretically impossible.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Religion is not a matter of entertainment, timepass and cakewalk that it can be entrusted to the religious trusts and societies. It is core to everything. Politics takes its birth from it. It is the primary duty of the Politics to uphold the dharma and act in accordance with the same. The moment the dharma suffers a setback Politics cannot exist.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">You wrote that Hindus are more liberal. That is why percentage of the Hindus decrease from 100% to some 75% throughout the centuries and if we deduct the lowcast people( who now believe in some other religions because uppercaste Hindus ill-treated them over the centuries) it will be still be less! And if our tolerant attitude which is matter of pride for our historians continues in future we will vanish from the universe! And we need not mind because we are liberal or [Advaities]! What a jok!</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Liberty</span></span></st1:place></st1:city><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> means to let the laws of nature govern the vagaries of the mind and not let the vagaries of the mind rule against the laws of nature as is being done in Islam by bin Laden, the religious bigots. </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">We, the intellectuals are failing to define the liberty at a proper point between these two extremes thoughts as stated in preceding para. That is why the debate among the intellectuals also.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Note that liberty, tolerance, accountability, responsibility which you referred to in your email are defined by the Dharmas and not Politics then how these could be brought into effect by confining the Dharma to trusts etc?</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">However the mistake to define the same has happened in our constitution by politicians neglecting the Dharma. Now you see that even if the crores of pages are wasted to make it fine it will never be sufficient. We witness it today.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">If any how we establish our government without any dharma (~idealogy) it is the nature of the power, time and human beings to get corrupt however stringent rules may be in place. Without Dharma and Morale, distortion will always creep in during the period of time. History is witness to it.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Ultimately I present here a formula for total solutions to all the problems and make FTI everlasting Dharma which will always be protected by governments that will rule the worlds (Goverments will be as we dream of)</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Start------</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Dharma rules the Power (Govt.) and Govt rults the Society.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Just as the govt cannot question the Dharma so the Society cannot question the Govt. (Here questioning means fundamental and not the questions meant for improving the efficiency.)</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Dharma is defined by the Jnanies.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">And Jnani is a one who has the welfare of the society at his core heart and nothing in the universe is a secret to him. E.g. {Shiva God, where will find him- we the deserved onesl}</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">------End.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">If you understand the right implications of the above discussion please first try to differentiate between the religious fanaticism (like bin Laden) and the one explained above. If with patience you read the above again and again you may get the full implications. Share the views with others as well for better understanding.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops: 269.6pt; text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">You may forward the same along with the earlier ones to your friends who are devoted to the welfare of the society without any cut / modifications.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Waiting for reply on: </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">The more you question, the more you understand. The moment the sense of enquiry ceases within you, it will be your dead end.</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><a href="mailto:rkumarane@gmail.com"><span style="font-size: small;">rkumarane@gmail.com</span></a></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">may also visit </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><u><a href="http://www.idealsocietykrishna.blogspot.com/"><span style="font-size: small;">www.idealworldkrishna.blogspot.com</span></a></u></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
</span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><u><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;">Note:</span></span></u></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><u><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="font-size: small;"> </span><span style="font-size: small;">I referred the krishikdesa website. I think however solutions we pour in they are likely to be waste. Because government will handle the case in a way beneficial to them. And bureaucracy will handle the same as if it is not their cause. Very few in Politics and bureaucracy are really qualified to handle the cause. Those who are qualified will hardly get the chance. The topic is a subject matter of study by the experts and specialists with the help of todays technological advancements. Political will is wanting for the same. ……and so on. Earlier we bring our government, the better it would be for the farmers! That’s only the hope!</span></span></u></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 36.0pt; text-justify: inter-ideograph;"><span style="font-size: small;"><br />
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</span></div>Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1115819171972015302.post-4096363413313476462010-08-07T08:35:00.000-07:002010-08-22T04:00:17.419-07:00Do you think ideal society can be developed?Yes I think it can be upto a certain level where everybody will be happy and it would be just like Ramarajya provided we the likeminded join together to take over the politics. Are you one of those great leaders committed to bring the Renaissance. If you are reply now.Rameshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11192108874963194725noreply@blogger.com0